The Beauty of Summer Sight-Seeing

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

. And if anyone attended any of the camps I attended and you called a foul simply for two hands on a player, you would have heard about it a lot.

And if anyone attended any of the camps that I'm familiar with, if you failed to call a foul when a defender put both hands on the opponent, you would have heard about it a lot.

For college camps, what may be usually heard is "Don't you read the damn appendixes in the rulebook too? That tells you how the play should be called."

....As in NCAA Appendix II-Section7(b).

Camps that advocate ignoring illegal contact is the reason the exact same NFHS POE's and NCAA bulletins on contact get issued year after year after year.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if anyone attended any of the camps that I'm familiar with, if you failed to call a foul when a defender put both hands on the opponent, you would have heard about it a lot.

For college camps, what may be usually heard is "Don't you read the damn appendixes in the rulebook too? That tells you how the play should be called."

....As in NCAA Appendix II-Section7(b).

Camps that advocate ignoring illegal contact is the reason the exact same NFHS POE's and NCAA bulletins on contact get issued year after year after year.

Once again, unless I misread something, the rules did not change for incidental contact in both NCAA (4-40-3) and the NF (4-27-3). And I see no where in the "actually rules" that it says it is an automatic foul to put two hands on a player. Either the NCAA and/or NF change the rules on contact or stop trying to apply a "philosophy" which is in complete conflict of rules in your Appendix or POE. Also the heading of that NCAA Appendix III (not II) says "Officiating Guidelines. So these are guidelines, not rules or absolutes.

Peace

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

... the exact same NFHS POE's and NCAA bulletins on contact get issued year after year after year.

Unfortunately, for some, they're not located in the "actual rules" part of the Rule Book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, unless I misread something, the rules did not change for incidental contact in both NCAA (4-40-3) and the NF (4-27-3). And I see no where in the "actually rules" that it says it is an automatic foul to put two hands on a player. Either the NCAA and/or NF change the rules on contact or stop trying to apply a "philosophy" which is in complete conflict of rules in your Appendix or POE. Also the heading of that NCAA Appendix III (not II) says "Officiating Guidelines. So these are guidelines, not rules or absolutes.

If certain areas want to hold clinics that advocate completely ignoring NCAA guidelines as well as the the clinic information put out by the NCAA itself, so be it. The NCAA has already identified that as being a major concern.

For anybody that wants to know how the NCAA wants handchecking and body bumping called ...not me(my opinion doesn't matter).. but the NCAA....all they have to do is look in the NCAA RULEBOOK under Appendix III-Section 7 and also go to:

http://www.eofficials.com/controlpag...NCAA.aspx?ID=3

Click on NCAA under "AFFILIATES AREA"...then click on "Mens Basketball". Look under 2007-08 CLINIC INFORMATION and click on "chapter 3- hand-checking and body bumping". Apparently, what is taught in the posted official NCAA clinics is completely different than what is being taught in some local clinics. Imo that's sad.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, unless I misread something, the rules did not change for incidental contact in both NCAA (4-40-3) and the NF (4-27-3).

I haven't been to camp yet this summer (first one is in a couple weeks), but in the past, the observers at camps that I've attended generally don't consider two hands on a ballhandler to be incidental, unless the ballhandler is already past the defender. That's just my experience. YMMV.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BLydic

Unfortunately, for some, they're not located in the "actual rules" part of the Rule Book.

They're still posted IN both of the actual NFHS and NCAA rule books though.

Kinda hard to just ignore 'em then imo.....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

“Rhythm, Balance, Speed and Quickness” is what you should apply when calling hand-check fouls or perimeter contact.

If none of these things are disrupted, then you do not need to call a foul. Fouls still have to have an advantage/disadvantage element to them. They also did not throw out the incidental contact rule either in this POE. And if anyone attended any of the camps I attended and you called a foul simply for two hands on a player, you would have heard about it a lot.

Peace

Exactly....the POE's are pointing out that there are times where an advantage is gained or play is too rough that are not being called....when two hands are on the opponent is a good indicator. It works 99% of the time....but falls short of being 100% accurate.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If certain areas want to hold clinics that advocate completely ignoring NCAA guidelines as well as the the clinic information put out by the NCAA itself, so be it. The NCAA has already identified that as being a major concern.

For anybody that wants to know how the NCAA wants handchecking and body bumping called ...not me(my opinion doesn't matter).. but the NCAA....all they have to do is look in the NCAA RULEBOOK under Appendix III-Section 7 and also go to:

http://www.eofficials.com/controlpag...NCAA.aspx?ID=3

Click on NCAA under "AFFILIATES AREA"...then click on "Mens Basketball". Look under 2007-08 CLINIC INFORMATION and click on "chapter 3- hand-checking and body bumping". Apparently, what is taught in the posted official NCAA clinics is completely different than what is being taught in some local clinics. Imo that's sad.

I did not realize I was referring to "local camps."

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Exactly....the POE's are pointing out that there are times where an advantage is gained or play is too rough that are not being called....when two hands are on the opponent is a good indicator. It works 99% of the time....but falls short of being 100% accurate.

I would go a lot lower than that, like 80% at the highest. There are a lot of player that are long gone when a defender has two hands on them. Or they we are going to have a call every time in the post no matter what.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

As Nevada said, the NFHS has given out to officials multi guidelines on defensive contact via case plays and POE's. So has the NCAA. And these guidelines get repeated over and over. And yet, some officials will still ignore 'em and use their own.

Sad.

The very reason that I said not to tell Rut!
The above words of JR describe his approach perfectly.
He pops into the thread, cites the NBA guideline on handchecking, and then says not to follow what the NFHS has very clearly stated. He is the quintessence of the problem.

Sad indeed.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

They also did not throw out the incidental contact rule either in this POE.

No, but they did except hand-checking from the purview of that rule.

Perhaps if you bothered to actually read the POE you would understand that.

"Hand-checking is not incidental contact"

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

the quintessence of the problem.

This is just beautiful. If I wasn't so danged macho, I might cry.

[Nevadaref]

Unfortunately, he won't even know what it means.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

"Hand-checking is not incidental contact"

Come on Nevadaref, tell us what you really think.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Come on Nevadaref, tell us what you really think.

Not my thought. That's a direct quote from the NFHS POE.