The Beauty of Summer Sight-Seeing

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Y2Koach

Asked why a 2 handed hip check was not called a foul, one official said "well, he still got by his defender, so there was no advantage". When I asked "well even though he got by the first defender that held him, it slows him down enough for the second help defender, isn't that an advantage gained?" We had a good discussion about this with no real resolution....

I've been taught 2 hands is an automatic.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I've been taught 2 hands is an automatic.

Obviously, you were taught by someone who actually reads what the NFHS publishes. (But don't tell Rut. )

2008-09 POINTS OF EMPHASIS
...
2. ROUGH PLAY
...
B. Hand-checking Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball. Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person using illegal hands/tactics. An offensive player who uses his/her hands or body to push off in order to create a more favorable position has committed a foul. Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1) Continuously places a hand on the opposing player – it is a foul.
2) Places both hands on a player – it is a foul.
3) Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on an opponent – it is a foul.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Obviously, you were taught by someone who actually reads what the NFHS publishes. (But don't tell Rut. )

Rut won't care, Blydic isn't in Illinois.

[Chess Ref]

In my neck of the woods this whole handchecking topic is the way it is in summer ball. It's just part of the culture.

I don't do very much summer ball and this is part of the reason. It gets pretty rough. The rules are set up so players have unlimited fouls and they know it. Partners don't want you to call anything short of murder,coaches-well I don't know what coaches want except every call to go their way, and for myself it's not that fun.

There was a thread about mechanics or no mechanics in summer ball. Part of that thread was getting the calls right and working on adv/disadv. Heck around here in summer ball adv/disadv is really would he get time in county jail for that ? If yes tweet, if no pass.

So being I have no interest in changing the summer ball culture of where I live I only do it when the assignors get jammed up and I get the last minute call.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut won't care, Blydic isn't in Illinois.

Or Indiana, Texas, Kentucky, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi or any other state that I worked with officials from that were not calling "touching."

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BLydic

I've been taught 2 hands is an automatic.

This is part of my extended pregame, not every game, just when I work with a rookie official, or with an official for the first time:

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
Places both hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
Continuously places a hand on the ball-handler, it is a foul.
Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
Remember RSBQ. If the dribbler’s Rhythm, Speed, Balance, or Quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This is part of my extended pregame, not every game, just when I work with a rookie official, or with an official for the first time:

Ball-Handler / Hand-Checking
Places both hands on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
Continuously places a hand on the ball-handler, it is a foul.
Continuously jabs a hand or forearm on a ball-handler, it is a foul.
Remember RSBQ. If the dribbler’s Rhythm, Speed, Balance, or Quickness are affected, we should have a hand-checking foul.

I would add "almost always" in most of those. If I've got a defender (who has been beat) with two hands on a dribbler who is headed for an undefended layup (but is not yet in the act of shooting) I'm not blowing the whistle and taking away two points....unless I plan on calling it an intentional.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I would add "almost always" in most of those. If I've got a defender (who has been beat) with two hands on a dribbler who is headed for an undefended layup (but is not yet in the act of shooting) I'm not blowing the whistle and taking away two points....unless I plan on calling it an intentional.

“Rhythm, Balance, Speed and Quickness” is what you should apply when calling hand-check fouls or perimeter contact.

If none of these things are disrupted, then you do not need to call a foul. Fouls still have to have an advantage/disadvantage element to them. They also did not throw out the incidental contact rule either in this POE. And if anyone attended any of the camps I attended and you called a foul simply for two hands on a player, you would have heard about it a lot.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

. And if anyone attended any of the camps I attended and you called a foul simply for two hands on a player, you would have heard about it a lot.

And if anyone attended any of the camps that I'm familiar with, if you failed to call a foul when a defender put both hands on the opponent, you would have heard about it a lot.

For college camps, what may be usually heard is "Don't you read the damn appendixes in the rulebook too? That tells you how the play should be called."

....As in NCAA Appendix II-Section7(b).

Camps that advocate ignoring illegal contact is the reason the exact same NFHS POE's and NCAA bulletins on contact get issued year after year after year.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And if anyone attended any of the camps that I'm familiar with, if you failed to call a foul when a defender put both hands on the opponent, you would have heard about it a lot.

For college camps, what may be usually heard is "Don't you read the damn appendixes in the rulebook too? That tells you how the play should be called."

....As in NCAA Appendix II-Section7(b).

Camps that advocate ignoring illegal contact is the reason the exact same NFHS POE's and NCAA bulletins on contact get issued year after year after year.

Once again, unless I misread something, the rules did not change for incidental contact in both NCAA (4-40-3) and the NF (4-27-3). And I see no where in the "actually rules" that it says it is an automatic foul to put two hands on a player. Either the NCAA and/or NF change the rules on contact or stop trying to apply a "philosophy" which is in complete conflict of rules in your Appendix or POE. Also the heading of that NCAA Appendix III (not II) says "Officiating Guidelines. So these are guidelines, not rules or absolutes.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, unless I misread something, the rules did not change for incidental contact in both NCAA (4-40-3) and the NF (4-27-3). And I see no where in the "actually rules" that it says it is an automatic foul to put two hands on a player. Either the NCAA and/or NF change the rules on contact or stop trying to apply a "philosophy" which is in complete conflict of rules in your Appendix or POE. Also the heading of that NCAA Appendix III (not II) says "Officiating Guidelines. So these are guidelines, not rules or absolutes.

If certain areas want to hold clinics that advocate completely ignoring NCAA guidelines as well as the the clinic information put out by the NCAA itself, so be it. The NCAA has already identified that as being a major concern.

For anybody that wants to know how the NCAA wants handchecking and body bumping called ...not me(my opinion doesn't matter).. but the NCAA....all they have to do is look in the NCAA RULEBOOK under Appendix III-Section 7 and also go to:

http://www.eofficials.com/controlpag...NCAA.aspx?ID=3

Click on NCAA under "AFFILIATES AREA"...then click on "Mens Basketball". Look under 2007-08 CLINIC INFORMATION and click on "chapter 3- hand-checking and body bumping". Apparently, what is taught in the posted official NCAA clinics is completely different than what is being taught in some local clinics. Imo that's sad.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Once again, unless I misread something, the rules did not change for incidental contact in both NCAA (4-40-3) and the NF (4-27-3).

I haven't been to camp yet this summer (first one is in a couple weeks), but in the past, the observers at camps that I've attended generally don't consider two hands on a ballhandler to be incidental, unless the ballhandler is already past the defender. That's just my experience. YMMV.

[BLydic]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

... the exact same NFHS POE's and NCAA bulletins on contact get issued year after year after year.

Unfortunately, for some, they're not located in the "actual rules" part of the Rule Book.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BLydic

Unfortunately, for some, they're not located in the "actual rules" part of the Rule Book.

They're still posted IN both of the actual NFHS and NCAA rule books though.

Kinda hard to just ignore 'em then imo.....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

“Rhythm, Balance, Speed and Quickness” is what you should apply when calling hand-check fouls or perimeter contact.

If none of these things are disrupted, then you do not need to call a foul. Fouls still have to have an advantage/disadvantage element to them. They also did not throw out the incidental contact rule either in this POE. And if anyone attended any of the camps I attended and you called a foul simply for two hands on a player, you would have heard about it a lot.

Peace

Exactly....the POE's are pointing out that there are times where an advantage is gained or play is too rough that are not being called....when two hands are on the opponent is a good indicator. It works 99% of the time....but falls short of being 100% accurate.