Fouls - 3 questions

[Shogun]

Hey folks,

Please help settle a couple of playground arguments:

- What are the restrictions on "establishing a position" when the dribbler cannot avoid contact? I understand the "full stride" idea is a myth; i.e., the defender need not plant himself a "full step" in front of the dribbler. But doesn't the defender have to give the dribbler reasonable time to stop? On offense, you have to be "in control of your body", but no one can stop on a dime. So if you're running full speed (with the ball) in a straight line, and a defender leaps in your path and "plants himself"--he's stationary when contact is made--surely that's a defensive foul, even if it's 2 or even 3 steps in front, if the dribbler can't change his direction in time?

- What if, in the above scenario, neither player has the ball?

- What are the criteria for when positioning is "boxing out" versus an illegal screen? I play with a guy who will try a kind of football-style "pass block" to keep you out of the key-- he says it's "just like boxing out", so you can move around while making contact. Does the defender have to be facing the basket? Does it have to be in anticipation of an imminent shot? Does it have to be within a certain distance of the basket?

Thanks!

[Doug]

I think before I attempt those questions, I am going to get exact references

Congrats, you have found out what officiating is all about: JUDGEMENT. "in my judgement number 24 was setting a screen, not boxing out", stuff like that, use references (like this forum), and use the best judgement you know how too, good luck, and i will try to get an anwser for you.

[Bart Tyson]

There is no time and distance with the dribbler. There is time and distance with opponent without the ball. The defender only has to establish legal guarding position. To obtain an initial legal guarding position: a) The guard must have both feet touching the floor. b) the front of the guard's torso must be facing the opponent.
Be very careful, this is only the basic concept. There are a lot of other factors that enter legal guarding after the "INITIAL" guarding.

Player without the ball then the guard has to give the opponent time and distance to avoid contact but not more than two strides.

Sounds like your football player is illegally guarding. I don't think he is legally beating you to the spot. This is judgement and i would have to see it.

Now i have given you just enough info to get you into trouble. Why don't you become an official?

[BktBallRef]

Bart gave you a good answer. In your first question, your premise is wrong. It's the dribbler's responisbility to avoid contact. It doesn't matter whether he takes 5 steps or 1 step after the defender has position. It's a player control foul if he plows into the defender. As Bart said, there is no time or distance requirment when guarding a player with the ball.

What gives you the right to all the space in front of you, just because you're dribbling? Nothing does, because the right doesn't exist.

With regard to the blocking out question, as long as your football friend doesn't move into you or displace you, he's legal.

[egausch]

Originally posted by Shogun
Hey folks,

Please help settle a couple of playground arguments:

- What are the restrictions on "establishing a position" when the dribbler cannot avoid contact? I understand the "full stride" idea is a myth; i.e., the defender need not plant himself a "full step" in front of the dribbler. But doesn't the defender have to give the dribbler reasonable time to stop? On offense, you have to be "in control of your body", but no one can stop on a dime. So if you're running full speed (with the ball) in a straight line, and a defender leaps in your path and "plants himself"--he's stationary when contact is made--surely that's a defensive foul, even if it's 2 or even 3 steps in front, if the dribbler can't change his direction in time?

- What if, in the above scenario, neither player has the ball?

- What are the criteria for when positioning is "boxing out" versus an illegal screen? I play with a guy who will try a kind of football-style "pass block" to keep you out of the key-- he says it's "just like boxing out", so you can move around while making contact. Does the defender have to be facing the basket? Does it have to be in anticipation of an imminent shot? Does it have to be within a certain distance of the basket?

Thanks!

There are about a gazillion posts on what is a block and what is a charge. Take some time to search this forum. The archives are very informative. I found it surprising there was so many posts when the rules are very clear, and posted a topic which had some good replies about the "whys" of the rules and some good perspective from officials making the calls.
On block verses charge, the offensive player with the ball, must have an expectation that a defender could jump in front of him/her at anytime. No time or distance required on the defense. Not only that but the defender can move laterally or back obliquely to maintain position. This seems unfair at first, even dangerous, and tends to slow the game down, IMHO. I've always felt a one step rule would be a good idea, but it's far easier and simplier for an official to call to the, "legal guarding position and no time and distance" requirement and look at the nature of the contact, i.e. torso to torso, torso side, head and shoulders past.
By the same token there are fixed rules for time and distance on screens, which have been stated. Not all contact, which can be severe in these sitchs, is a foul.
As far as football style blocks go, if the defender is using his forearms or extending his arms, legs, etc, outside his "box", or moving into the offensive player, or moving into the side of the player, and contact occurs, it's a violation.
I tell my players when on offesive, they must use speed, head, body fakes, spins, etc. to get their head and shoulders, as a minimum, pass the defender, before any contact occurs whether they have the ball or not.
On defense it's easy. Get there first and defend with your feet.
EG

[Shogun]

Thanks, this board is an incredible resource. I did spend some time searching, but hadn't found definitive answers. Or maybe I just didn't want to accept the no-time-and-distance thing.

A couple of points of clarification:
- My pass-blocker (I don't have the ball) isn't extending elbows, but he does move into me if I try to move around him. Once he's facing me, if I try to move past him at, say a 45 degree angle, my first step is 1/2 completed (but not head and shoulders are not past him), can he move sideways into me? He's not "getting beat", but I think he is "crowding me out". Yes?

- I'm trying to reconcile a couple of concepts here. Since time and distance DO apply on a screen, but not a block, it seems you're "better off" without the ball, as far as foul calls. YET:

1. When I'm boxing out and have an established position facing the basket, if my opponent is against my butt/hip and tries to go around me, I've always been happy to slide over to prevent him. I'm moving, he's moving, but he can't get there because I'm pushing back (not pushing him off his spot or out of *his* position, just maintaining pressure as we move more-or-less parallel to the basket).

AND

2. If I drive for the basket, I've always thought it was illegal for a defender to maintain significant contact/pressure as he moves parallel with me, because he's pushing me off my path. I'm not trying to move off my path directly toward the hole, just straight down the lane, but I'm still being impeded/pushed. I *think* (not sure of anything anymore) this would be a defensive foul.

BUT:

The only major difference between #1 (which I thought was okay) and #2 (which I thought was a foul), is that in #2, the outside player has the ball, which-- if I understand correctly-- should be, more or less, a point AGAINST him, not FOR him, because time and distance don't apply. Augh!

Phew.

So, is there a way to reconcile all this, or am I just a pathetic, hacking, ignorant punk?

[mick]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shogun


- My pass-blocker (I don't have the ball) isn't extending elbows, but he does move into me if I try to move around him. Once he's facing me, if I try to move past him at, say a 45 degree angle, my first step is 1/2 completed (but not head and shoulders are not past him), can he move sideways into me? He's not "getting beat", but I think he is "crowding me out". Yes?

Shogun,
This sounds like the defender is impeding you.
A block may be called if the an official sees that you were put at a disadvantage, or the contact may be deemed incidental. (In college ball, the block is more likely to be called than in High school or Rec Ball)

- I'm trying to reconcile a couple of concepts here. Since time and distance DO apply on a screen, but not a block, it seems you're "better off" without the ball, as far as foul calls. YET:

1. When I'm boxing out and have an established position facing the basket, if my opponent is against my butt/hip and tries to go around me, I've always been happy to slide over to prevent him. I'm moving, he's moving, but he can't get there because I'm pushing back (not pushing him off his spot or out of *his* position, just maintaining pressure as we move more-or-less parallel to the basket).

Shogun,
In this case you are probably okay by moving sideways as long as you do not have your arms extended well beyond the width of your body. Extending the arms could be determined to be holding.

AND

2. If I drive for the basket, I've always thought it was illegal for a defender to maintain significant contact/pressure as he moves parallel with me, because he's pushing me off my path. I'm not trying to move off my path directly toward the hole, just straight down the lane, but I'm still being impeded/pushed. I *think* (not sure of anything anymore) this would be a defensive foul.

Shogun,
If you have a defender in constant contact with you on your drive, he ought to be called for pushing, blocking, hand-checking

BUT:

The only major difference between #1 (which I thought was okay) and #2 (which I thought was a foul), is that in #2, the outside player has the ball, which-- if I understand correctly-- should be, more or less, a point AGAINST him, not FOR him, because time and distance don't apply. Augh!

Phew.

Shogun,
We officials have to see who is moving toward whom when the contact occurs. The "point" is against the player that moves toward an opponent, and making contact, the most


So, is there a way to reconcile all this, or am I just a pathetic, hacking, ignorant punk? [/B]

You sound like a potential official.
mick

[Bart Tyson]

Shogun, ( buy the way, why Shogun?). Anyway, I still play BBall (pickup at the Y) and from time to time i get a defender doing the same thing to me. And i do think it is illegal. However, this is judgement, it is a fine line. Different officials will see this different from one another. You will just have to deal with it. The point is you are trying to get to a spot and he wants the same spot just so you can't have that spot. niether one of you got to the spot 1st. You may have to over exaggerate, i.e. become a good actor, on how much he pushed you to get a call.

There is no rule on Crowding.

Better off without the ball, NOT, I like to shoot.

1) sounds like good box out.

2) Probably a foul, again be an actor.

BUT) you have an interesting point here. The difference is in #1 you have established legal guarding position. and in #2 the defender is not in front of the dribbler.

PHEW) I don't know you so i can't say if you are a .....

Good luck and visit more often.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
1) sounds like good box out.

Just because he's boxing out doesn't make it legal for him to continue to move and block the opponent's path. That's not blocking out, that's backing out, even if the movement is to the side. It may or may not be called a foul, depending on whether it had an impact on the play or not.

[Bart Tyson]

BktBallRef, in theory you might be correct, in the practical sense, i don't think so. The reason is when a player is blocking out, it is only for 1,2,3 sec. There isn't much time to do something illegal when you exclude the obvious, such as holding, extending of the arms, backing out( not moving him off his spot or out of his position). Have you ever called a foul on the inside player blocking out as described?

[BktBallRef]

I don't see the difference in this and backing out. Just because the player is moving to the side is of no consequence. He's still blocking and riding the opponent out of the play. Have I called this a foul? Sure I have. Have I not called it a foul? Sure I have. It all goes to adv./disadv. Like I said, it may or may not be a foul, but you can't discount that it's possible. 1, 2, 3 seconds doesn't have anything to do with it. That's plenty of time to commit a foul. JMO

[Bart Tyson]

BktBallRef, for the most part I agree with you. And yes 1,2,3 sec. is enough time. I brought the time factor in because this is not much time for an obvious foul for this type of blocking out. With all that is going on, rebounding, boxing out, holding, pushing, etc. This type of blocking out is border-line. Most cases not an obvious foul, maybe foul maybe not. Its going to have to be obvious to everyone in the 30th row and since noone in the 30th row even knows what a foul is, well, i'm most likely going to pass. You call a foul on this and every time someone boxes out the other team will be wanting a foul. I will just make sure i call it the same way at both ends.

[BktBallRef]

Problem is everybody in the 30th row is watching the shooter and the ball. I'm paid to watch everything else. And to ignore the crowd!

[Hawks Coach]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick

Originally posted by Shogun

So, is there a way to reconcile all this, or am I just a pathetic, hacking, ignorant punk?

You sound like a potential official.
mick [/B]

Sounds redundant to me