Atempt shot, fumble

[Bart Tyson]

A1 jumps up for a shot, as he brings his hands up, with the ball, he loses the ball. The ball goes stright up, and then he jumps again to catch the ball. No defender touched the ball. My partner called a travel. After the game I was the only one among the three of us who thought it was not a violation.

[BktBallRef]

You were the only one that was right.
It's either a shot or a fumble.
Either way, there's no player control.
No travel.

[bob jenkins]

I disagree with Tony.

Once the player leaves the ground (more accurately, raises his / her pivot foot), the only thing the player can do is shoot or pass. Since the player did neither, it's a violation.

2000-2001 supplemental interps, situation 1.

[devdog69]

Bob, I think we may not be envisioning the same thing. I read it to be: player went up, losing ball on way up, ball went straight up into the air (shot or fumble), player returned to the floor then re-jumped into air and secured the ball. Once the player lifts his pivot foot he may do anything except return it to the floor with the ball in his control, which would include fumbling the ball and subsequently retrieving it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by devdog69
Bob, I think we may not be envisioning the same thing. I read it to be: player went up, losing ball on way up, ball went straight up into the air (shot or fumble), player returned to the floor then re-jumped into air and secured the ball. Once the player lifts his pivot foot he may do anything except return it to the floor with the ball in his control, which would include fumbling the ball and subsequently retrieving it.

That's what I envisioned (well, except the "shot" part -- I agree that if the official judged it to be a shot then it's no violation.)

DO you have a reference for "except return to the floor with the ball in his control" statement? Note that 4-43-3a and 4-43-4a specifically state that the ball must be released on a shot or a pass.

The case I cited earlier is nearly identical to the case presented here.

[Bart Tyson]

What about rule 4-40-3; The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball. So, could we not say the player was shooting?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
I disagree with Tony.

Once the player leaves the ground (more accurately, raises his / her pivot foot), the only thing the player can do is shoot or pass. Since the player did neither, it's a violation.

2000-2001 supplemental interps, situation 1.

Bob, the play stated that "...he jumps again..." How could he possibly jump again without returning to the floor? Unless he intentionally tosses the ball to himself, don't we have either a shot or a fumble? How can we have traveling if the ball was shot or fumbled?

Yes, if he jumps with the ball and returns to the ground with the ball, he's traveled, unless, of course, we have a held ball while airborne. But that's a whole 'nother thread, eh?

BTW, what does the interpretation that you cited say? I no longer have access to it.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

BTW, what does the interpretation that you cited say? I no longer have access to it.

2000-2001 Basketball Interpretations Supplement #1 (11/9/00)

Situation 1: A1 is an airborne shooter preparing to release the ball on a shot attempt. Instead of releasing the ball on the try, A1 fumbles the ball (while still in the air) and drops it. A1 then returns to the floor and secures possession of the ball. RULING: Traveling violation. While airborne the ball must be released for a try or pass (4-43-3a; 9-4)

I think that's sufficiently close to the play presented in this thread to apply.

Note that 4-43-3a states "released on a pass or try for goal" -- it doesn't say "or is fumbled."

[BktBallRef]

Okay, that's cool.
My interp of the play is that he took a very bad shot!

However, nowhere else in 4-43 is the word "fumble" used yet we still allow a player to retrieve one without calling traveling. How is it different?

I think the possible difference in the case play is that the player "allowed" the ball to fall to the floor. It's no different than lifting the pivot before starting a dribble.

Anyway, food for thought. I think the rulebook could be clearer on fumbles, airborne players, contact on the ball by the defender and traveling.

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by BktBallRef


I think the possible difference in the case play is that the player "allowed" the ball to fall to the floor. It's no different than lifting the pivot before starting a dribble.

I noticed the wording also. "allowed the ball to fall to the floor". This almost and maybe does sound like he fumbled, regained control and intentionally let the ball fall to the floor.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Okay, that's cool.
My interp of the play is that he took a very bad shot!

However, nowhere else in 4-43 is the word "fumble" used yet we still allow a player to retrieve one without calling traveling. How is it different?

Because the restrictions are "while holding the ball." If the non-airborne player fumbles, s/he isn't holding the ball and the pivot restrictions don't apply.

If the player leaves the floor while holding the ball, 4-43-3a (etc.) apply.

If the player fumbles, then leaves the floor, 4-43-3a doesn't apply and it's not travelling.

[BktBallRef]

That's too technical for me, Bob! Had to have been a shot!

Thanks!