Interesting situation in a summer league game

[Cajun Reff]

This happened Monday night:

End of the game, 10 seconds left, Team A is winning by two points.

Team A is in-bounding after a Team B made basket. Team A attempts the double pass play. As A1 attempts to throw the ball to A2 OOB on the baseline the pass hits R1 in the side of the head. The ball then rolls onto the court where A3 touches it. B1 then grabs the loose ball and scores a layup to tie the game.


R1 is dazed and U1 takes an official's timeout. During the timeout team A coach is livid and says that the play should have been blown dead by U1 when the ball hit R1 and then rolled onto the court.

R1 and U1 decide that the play stands, Team A goes on to win in overtime

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

...During the timeout team A coach is livid and says that the play should have been blown dead by U1 when the ball hit R1 and then rolled onto the court...

Yeah, and award the ball to Team B b/c A1 failed to pass the ball directly into the playing court....

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

This happened Monday night:

End of the game, 10 seconds left, Team A is winning by two points.

Team A is in-bounding after a Team B made basket. Team A attempts the double pass play. As A1 attempts to throw the ball to A2 OOB on the baseline the pass hits R1 in the side of the head. The ball then rolls onto the court where A3 touches it. B1 then grabs the loose ball and scores a layup to tie the game.


R1 is dazed and U1 takes an official's timeout. During the timeout team A coach is livid and says that the play should have been blown dead by U1 when the ball hit R1 and then rolled onto the court.

R1 and U1 decide that the play stands, Team A goes on to win in overtime

So A1 legally is permitted to pass to his/her OOB teammate in this situation. The official needs to get out of the way. It sounds as though A would have likely won the game, and luckily they did anyways. I think the R1 needs to learn a lot from this play. After all, I'm guessing that he doesn't interfere with players dribbling, shooting, calling timeouts, setting screens, playing defense, blocking shots, or switching when screens are set, or passing amongst teammates when inbounds. If I were the coach, the refs association would hear about this one.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So A1 legally is permitted to pass to his/her OOB teammate in this situation. The official needs to get out of the way. It sounds as though A would have likely won the game, and luckily they did anyways. I think the R1 needs to learn a lot from this play. After all, I'm guessing that he doesn't interfere with players dribbling, shooting, calling timeouts, setting screens, playing defense, blocking shots, or switching when screens are set, or passing amongst teammates when inbounds. If I were the coach, the refs association would hear about this one.

Of course A1 can pass it to a teammate, but why come down so hard on the ref?? Should he learn from it - of course. But for all we know, A1 was on the opposite side of the key from R1 and A2 ran OOB on the other side of R1 where R1 couldn't see him, and then A1 made a stupidly bad pass. That sure isn't R1's fault...the officials are part of the court and we occasionally end up in the wrong spot and get in the way. It happens. Coach should be more worried about A1 throwing a pass when someone was in the way than in calling the refs association!

[Cajun Reff]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yeah, and award the ball to Team B b/c A1 failed to pass the ball directly into the playing court....

I am the assignor for this summer league and R1 is an experienced official, U1 is a rookie that just completed his first year. The way the gym they were in is set up, there is a marginal area between the baseline and the wall, so when R1 initiated play he bounced it to A1, started his count and then started to back away and A2 (who was behind him) left the court and went beyond the boundary. R1 told me that A1 then turned and fired the ball right at him and he didnt have time to move, but even if he did have time to move he literally had no where to go. The ball hit him in the side of the head and then rolled onto the court. R1 was woozy, U1 didnt have a clue what to do and R1 said he let it stand because A3 touched the ball on the court before B1 gained possession.

It was a learning experience for everyone involved.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

so when R1 initiated play he bounced it to A1, started his count and then started to back away

Why did R1 have the ball? Coming out of a time out?
R1 was properly positioned?
And R1 was OOB?

Please clarify, because I'm having a hard time figuring out the logistics.

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

... and A2 (who was behind him) left the court and went beyond the boundary. R1 told me that A1 then turned and fired the ball right at him and he didnt have time to move, but even if he did have time to move he literally had no where to go. The ball hit him in the side of the head and then rolled onto the court. R1 was woozy, U1 didnt have a clue what to do and R1 said he let it stand because A3 touched the ball on the court before B1 gained possession.

It was a learning experience for everyone involved.

[Jurassic Referee]

Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.

As Rocky said, the officials should learn from it and the coach just has to deal with it.

Juggler, that's exactly what I'd tell a coach if a complaint was put in. The standard response is "sh!t happens".

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.

As Rocky said, the officials should learn from it and the coach just has to deal with it.

Juggler, that's exactly what I'd tell a coach if a complaint was put in. The standard response is "sh!t happens".

And do your local coaches really accept that response?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

And do your local coaches really accept that response?

Um, of course they do. What else could they possibly have to say after you admit that, yes, the officials could have handled that play differently?

If the official was right, you back them 100%. If they screwed up, admit it.

Officials are human. They make mistakes. The good ones learn from it and don't repeat those mistakes. Coaches will accept that if you're honest and straight-forward with them. It works both ways too. They also have to accept it when you tell them that their behavior isn't acceptable either. And a coach going postal after an official makes a wrong call is never acceptable--anywhere.

[Cajun Reff]

Originally Posted by referee99

Why did R1 have the ball? Coming out of a time out?
R1 was properly positioned?
And R1 was OOB?

Please clarify, because I'm having a hard time figuring out the logistics.

yes, Team A had called timeout after the made basket to set up the double pass play

R1 bounced A1 the ball, A1 ran a few steps to his right, R1 had backed away from A1 for his count. A2 ran OOB behind R1, A1 turned and fired the ball back to the middle of the court OOB to A2 but R1 was standing right in the line of fire and got hit

For their 2 man mechanics R1 was in the proper place, albeit it at the wrong time. In a larger gym he would have had more room to back away from the end line but the wall was right there.

[Coltdoggs]

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

The ball hitting a referee is the same as the ball hitting the floor in the location the referee is standing.

So (rhetorical question alert), what's the ruling if inbounder A1 releases the ball such that it hits the court out-of-bounds and goes onto the court?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

It wasn't a throw-in imo, by rules definition. A throw-in occurs when the ball is passed directly into the court. What happened on this play was an official being struck by an OOB pass.

You can probably make a case for either of two scenarios:
1) Call it a throw-in, and the whole play stands if the ball didn't bounce OOB .....which means that the team A coach goes nuts.
2) Call it a pass with inadvertent interference by the R and reset the throw-in....which means that the team B coach goes nuts.

No matter what, the officials have got someone mad at 'em....even though they're the victim of a gym with a small OOB area.

A reset seems like the logical and fair solution to me. Of course, that's jmo. Others may disagree.

I have no idea either how the officials can really avoid having a play like this happen, under the circumstances described. I'll have to leave that explanation up to Juggler.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

Almost (if you want it by the book)...

When the ball hit the R, it was not dead immediately: that was no different than if A1 was executing a bounce pass along the endline to A2 (referee is part of the court at the location of the referee). If after hitting the R, the ball remained on the OOB side of the line...A1, A2 or any other A player (who was OOB along the throwin boundary) could grab the ball and complete the throwin. However, the ball didn't remain OOB, it deflected inbounds. At that point, it became a throwin violation for not throwing it directly onto the court (it hit OOB...the ref...before going inbounds). The ball was dead when it bounced inbounds. The clock should have never started and B1's basket was with a dead ball. B's ball OOB nearest the violation.

[love2refbball]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.QUOTE]

if you "reset" the play does it now become a spot throw in?