Interesting situation in a summer league game

[Cajun Reff]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Yeah, and award the ball to Team B b/c A1 failed to pass the ball directly into the playing court....

I am the assignor for this summer league and R1 is an experienced official, U1 is a rookie that just completed his first year. The way the gym they were in is set up, there is a marginal area between the baseline and the wall, so when R1 initiated play he bounced it to A1, started his count and then started to back away and A2 (who was behind him) left the court and went beyond the boundary. R1 told me that A1 then turned and fired the ball right at him and he didnt have time to move, but even if he did have time to move he literally had no where to go. The ball hit him in the side of the head and then rolled onto the court. R1 was woozy, U1 didnt have a clue what to do and R1 said he let it stand because A3 touched the ball on the court before B1 gained possession.

It was a learning experience for everyone involved.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

so when R1 initiated play he bounced it to A1, started his count and then started to back away

Why did R1 have the ball? Coming out of a time out?
R1 was properly positioned?
And R1 was OOB?

Please clarify, because I'm having a hard time figuring out the logistics.

Originally Posted by Cajun Reff

... and A2 (who was behind him) left the court and went beyond the boundary. R1 told me that A1 then turned and fired the ball right at him and he didnt have time to move, but even if he did have time to move he literally had no where to go. The ball hit him in the side of the head and then rolled onto the court. R1 was woozy, U1 didnt have a clue what to do and R1 said he let it stand because A3 touched the ball on the court before B1 gained possession.

It was a learning experience for everyone involved.

[Jurassic Referee]

Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.

As Rocky said, the officials should learn from it and the coach just has to deal with it.

Juggler, that's exactly what I'd tell a coach if a complaint was put in. The standard response is "sh!t happens".

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.

As Rocky said, the officials should learn from it and the coach just has to deal with it.

Juggler, that's exactly what I'd tell a coach if a complaint was put in. The standard response is "sh!t happens".

And do your local coaches really accept that response?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

And do your local coaches really accept that response?

Um, of course they do. What else could they possibly have to say after you admit that, yes, the officials could have handled that play differently?

If the official was right, you back them 100%. If they screwed up, admit it.

Officials are human. They make mistakes. The good ones learn from it and don't repeat those mistakes. Coaches will accept that if you're honest and straight-forward with them. It works both ways too. They also have to accept it when you tell them that their behavior isn't acceptable either. And a coach going postal after an official makes a wrong call is never acceptable--anywhere.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Um, of course they do. What else could they possibly have to say after you admit that, yes, the officials could have handled that play differently?

If the official was right, you back them 100%. If they screwed up, admit it.

Officials are human. They make mistakes. The good ones learn from it and don't repeat those mistakes. Coaches will accept that if you're honest and straight-forward with them. It works both ways too. They also have to accept it when you tell them that their behavior isn't acceptable either. And a coach going postal after an official makes a wrong call is never acceptable--anywhere.

Ok, that is fine. But it did seem that this answer is different than "[it] happens".

[love2refbball]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.QUOTE]

if you "reset" the play does it now become a spot throw in?

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=love2refbball]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yes, U1 shoulda blown the play dead. Being new and clueless, he didn't. Yes, the R should have reset the throw-in. He didn't either.QUOTE]

if you "reset" the play does it now become a spot throw in?

No. Just repeat the original throw-in.

[Cajun Reff]

Originally Posted by referee99

Why did R1 have the ball? Coming out of a time out?
R1 was properly positioned?
And R1 was OOB?

Please clarify, because I'm having a hard time figuring out the logistics.

yes, Team A had called timeout after the made basket to set up the double pass play

R1 bounced A1 the ball, A1 ran a few steps to his right, R1 had backed away from A1 for his count. A2 ran OOB behind R1, A1 turned and fired the ball back to the middle of the court OOB to A2 but R1 was standing right in the line of fire and got hit

For their 2 man mechanics R1 was in the proper place, albeit it at the wrong time. In a larger gym he would have had more room to back away from the end line but the wall was right there.

[Coltdoggs]

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

The ball hitting a referee is the same as the ball hitting the floor in the location the referee is standing.

So (rhetorical question alert), what's the ruling if inbounder A1 releases the ball such that it hits the court out-of-bounds and goes onto the court?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

It wasn't a throw-in imo, by rules definition. A throw-in occurs when the ball is passed directly into the court. What happened on this play was an official being struck by an OOB pass.

You can probably make a case for either of two scenarios:
1) Call it a throw-in, and the whole play stands if the ball didn't bounce OOB .....which means that the team A coach goes nuts.
2) Call it a pass with inadvertent interference by the R and reset the throw-in....which means that the team B coach goes nuts.

No matter what, the officials have got someone mad at 'em....even though they're the victim of a gym with a small OOB area.

A reset seems like the logical and fair solution to me. Of course, that's jmo. Others may disagree.

I have no idea either how the officials can really avoid having a play like this happen, under the circumstances described. I'll have to leave that explanation up to Juggler.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I have no idea either how the officials can really avoid having a play like this happen, under the circumstances described. I'll have to leave that explanation up to Juggler.

How about don't bounce the ball across the FT lane even in the back court?
I know that the NCAAW do it, but that the NCAAM do not.
In this case, perhaps the game was two-man, but I still would have gone over to the side of the basket where the thrower wanted to start. This would have made it much more unlikely that another player would step OOB behind me as I moved out of the way towards the corner.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

How about don't bounce the ball across the FT lane even in the back court?
I know that the NCAAW do it, but that the NCAAM do not.
In this case, perhaps the game was two-man, but I still would have gone over to the side of the basket where the thrower wanted to start. This would have made it much more unlikely that another player would step OOB behind me as I moved out of the way towards the corner.

Unless that player was stepping OOB in the corner you started on....

A1 receives the ball from the R on the left of the key at the lane line extended...takes 1 -3 steps to the right while A2 cuts to the corner on the side where the A1 started when A1 turns and throws the ball to A2.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

So for my learning purposes....

We are saying that it was not a legal throw in...I have in my mind that the ref is part of the playing surface in bounds or out...so if he was OOB and the ball hit him, we have a change of posession...No?

Almost (if you want it by the book)...

When the ball hit the R, it was not dead immediately: that was no different than if A1 was executing a bounce pass along the endline to A2 (referee is part of the court at the location of the referee). If after hitting the R, the ball remained on the OOB side of the line...A1, A2 or any other A player (who was OOB along the throwin boundary) could grab the ball and complete the throwin. However, the ball didn't remain OOB, it deflected inbounds. At that point, it became a throwin violation for not throwing it directly onto the court (it hit OOB...the ref...before going inbounds). The ball was dead when it bounced inbounds. The clock should have never started and B1's basket was with a dead ball. B's ball OOB nearest the violation.