LGP on Airborne Shooter

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by rwest

Are you saying that anytime an offensive player changes direction, that the defender has lost LGP? If so, I don't agree.

No....there are some direction changes that cause the defender to lose LGP....those where the defender is, at some point in time, in a position where there would be no contact if A1 were to continue in the established direction.

Originally Posted by rwest

If A1 has the ball and B1 has OBTAINED LGP, when A1 moves to go around B1, B1 can move to maintain LGP. B1 does not have to regain LGP.

True, IF B1 actually does maintain it...by staying constantly in the path of A1. If at any time A1's path doesn't not go through B1, B1 has lost LGP...they can reobtain it very easily, however....but they can't do it with A1 airborne.

Originally Posted by rwest

If B1 has to re-establish LGP, then in very few instances can he move to maintain it. Remember, to obtain LGP you only have to have 2 feet on the floor facing the opponent. If A1 moves at an angle to get around B1, B1 is still facing A1. He hasn't lost anything.

If A1 cuts such that B1 is no longer in his path, B1 must again get into the path with 2 feet down and facing A1. B1, after falling out of A1's path, can't turn sideways, run into the path and take the contact on the side.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

True, IF B1 actually does maintain it...by staying constantly in the path of A1. If at any time A1's path doesn't not go through B1, B1 has lost LGP...they can reobtain it very easily, however....but they can't do it with A1 airborne.

'Zackly! And that's what MTD Sr. fails to comprehend.

[BillyMac]

10.6.1 SITUATION C: B1 is standing behind the plane of the backboard before A1 jumps for a lay-up shot. The forward momentum causes airborne shooter A1 to charge into B1. RULING: B1 is entitled to the position obtained legally before A1 left the floor. If the ball goes through the basket before or after the contact occurs, the player control foul cancels the score. However, if B1 moves into the path of A1 after A1 has left the floor, the foul is on B1. B1's foul on the airborne shooter is a foul during the act of shooting. If the shot is successful, one free throw is awarded and if it is unsuccessful, two free throws result. (4-19-1, 6-6-7-4, 10 PENALTY2 5a)

10-6-3-Note: When a guard moves into the path of a dribbler and contact occurs, either player may be responsible for the contact, but the greater responsibility is that of the dribbler if the guard conforms to the following principles, which officials use in reaching a decision. The guard is assumed to have obtained a guarding position if he/she is in the dribbler's path facing him/her. If he/she jumps into position, both feet must return to the floor after the jump before he/she has obtained a guarding position. No specific stance or distance is required. It is assumed the guard may shift to maintain his/her position in the path of the dribbler, provided he/she does not charge into the dribbler nor otherwise cause contact, as outlined in 10-6-2. The responsibility of the dribbler for contact is not shifted merely because the guard turns or ducks to absorb shock when contact by the dribbler is imminent. The guard may not cause contact by moving under or in front of a passer or thrower after he or she is in the air with both feet off the floor.

Peter Webb: "I have received a couple of notes indicating that a defender can obtain a legal guarding position after an opponent has become airborne. Obviously the rule does not permit that."

From many of the posts in this thread, especially those from Jurassic Referee, and from the citations listed above, in my opinion, the defender cannot obtain a legal guarding position after the offensive player has become airborne, however, I would like the following clarified:

Let's say a defender obtains a legal guarding position before the offensive player has become airborne. Right before contact occurs, the defender not only turns, or ducks, as stated in 10-6-3-Note above, but actually backs up a step to absorb contact.

I'm still calling this a player control foul. Am I correct? Citations please.

Also, for new Forum members, Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. can usually be counted on for reliable information on this Forum. He is just having some type of mental block regarding this situation, so lets' give him a "mulligan" on this thread. I believe he has earned it based on 99% of his previous posts.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's say a defender obtains a legal guarding position before the offensive player has become airborne. Right before contact occurs, the defender not only turns, or ducks, as stated in 10-6-3-Note above, but actually backs up a step to absorb contact.

I'm still calling this a player control foul. Am I correct? Citations please.

If the defender is in the path of the offensive player, then moves away from the airborne player, yet contact still occurs, obviously he is still in the path. 10-6-7

[JugglingReferee]

So...

In the other thread started by wanja that mentions some NBA sites with ref's pictures (http://forum.officiating.com/showthread.php?p=519403), there is a link to http://phillyref.com/basketball/nbarefs/nbarefs.html.

In this thread, BBR and Nevada discuss the legality of posting rules online. The PhillyRef site links to http://www.mtboa.org, which has some videos meant for instructional use, presumably for beginning officials. One of those videos, the first one listed, discusses the block/charge/screen. The first discussion point in this video is LGP, and the discussor eventually gets into the defense being allowed to move, and also discusses the airborne A1 and B1 moving over laterally, trying to maintain LGP. This is seen at 1:30 into the video.

Even this guy says it's a block! And he claims to be only refereeing for 3 years.

[ref2coach]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Even this guy says it's a block! And he claims to be only refereeing for 3 years.

The 3 year commit is very "Tongue in cheek". The man in the video has worked at the State tournament level. He also works in the land of "college and above"

The video was made during the 2007 State sponsored camp. The camps serve two purposes in our State. 1) You must attend a camp once every 3 years to work any Varsity tournament game in the State. 2) Most associations require that an official attend camp before being moved to the "Varsity" roster.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

2) Most associations require that an official attend camp before being moved to the "Varsity" roster.

Something that most of the membership of my HS board seem to vehemently oppose.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ref2coach

The 3 year commit is very "Tongue in cheek". The man in the video has worked at the State tournament level. He also works in the land of "college and above"

The video was made during the 2007 State sponsored camp. The camps serve two purposes in our State. 1) You must attend a camp once every 3 years to work any Varsity tournament game in the State. 2) Most associations require that an official attend camp before being moved to the "Varsity" roster.

Cool. Since you're from TN, I bet you know this man from middle TN. LOL