Part II: Defender drops on hands and knees...

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

However, in the original thread...

Uh... no "forceful" backing-down in this scenario.

Déjà vu all over again, indeed

Thanks,
Paul

[Jurassic Referee]

As I posted in t'other thread.....

NFHS rule 10-6-1 is close enough for me, and also meets the purpose and intent of the playing rules imho.

NFHS rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not hold, push, charge, TRIP or impede the progress of an opponent by...bending his/her body into other than a normal position, nor use any rough tactics."

That general rules statement covers the situation being discussed. The defender is bending their body into a position that could hardly be called "normal" on a basketball court, and tripping an opponent can also easily be labeled "rough tactics".

Soooooo.......imo it can be justified to call it an intentional personal foul.

It's completely different than a player slipping and falling to the court, and then having an opponent trip over them. The first act was done to deliberately gain an unfair advantage not intended under the purpose and intent of the rules. The second was done accidentally.

Again, jmho.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

NFHS rule 10-6-1--"A player shall not hold, push, charge, TRIP or impede the progress of an opponent by...bending his/her body into other than a normal position, nor use any rough tactics." That general rules statement covers the situation being discussed. The defender is bending their body into a position that could hardly be called "normal" on a basketball court, and tripping an opponent can also easily be labeled "rough tactics".

Simple. To the point. Proper citation.

That's, that's, that's all folks.

[Nevadaref]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the physical position of the defender on his hands and knees. That is not what any official should penalize.
The problem here is the tactic of purposely adopting that position with the intent to put his opponent in a dangerous situation. Simply put the idea of the defender is to do something unfair and unsafe. That cannot be allowed and must be penalized.

I would not penalize based upon the physical contact which may or may not take place in this specific case. I would penalize based upon the mental process undertaken by the defender. His conciously chose to do something not within the spirit of fair play. That meets the definition of an unsporting foul. Thus the penalty that I select is an unsporting technical foul and it occurs as soon as the defender adopts this position, but I may withhold the whistle to allow the opponent to finish his scoring play and then enforce the penalty. So again any physical contact is not the central issue.

I know that the criticism of this method of handling the situation is going to be that an official cannot read the mind of a player or that one doesn't know if the defender is injured. In answer to that I say that it can quickly be determined whether the player is hurt or not, and while an official can never know exactly what a player or coach is thinking reasonable determinations of such can be made from their actions. Afterall, that is why we get paid the big bucks!

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the physical position of the defender on his hands and knees. That is not what any official should penalize.
The problem here is the tactic of purposely adopting that position with the intent to put his opponent in a dangerous situation. Simply put the idea of the defender is to do something unfair and unsafe. That cannot be allowed and must be penalized.

I would not penalize based upon the physical contact which may or may not take place in this specific case. I would penalize based upon the mental process undertaken by the defender. His conciously chose to do something not within the spirit of fair play. That meets the definition of an unsporting foul. Thus the penalty that I select is an unsporting technical foul and it occurs as soon as the defender adopts this position, but I may withhold the whistle to allow the opponent to finish his scoring play and then enforce the penalty. So again any physical contact is not the central issue.

I know that the criticism of this method of handling the situation is going to be that an official cannot read the mind of a player or that one doesn't know if the defender is injured. In answer to that I say that it can quickly be determined whether the player is hurt or not, and while an official can never know exactly what a player or coach is thinking reasonable determinations of such can be made from their actions. Afterall, that is why we get paid the big bucks!

Well, I agree with Bob.

I think I can live with the unsporting T, as it is not too much different than the "barking dog" play. And, if that's the case, I wouldn't need to wait to see if anyone gets injured, or if there's any contact at all.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Déjà vu all over again, indeed

Have you got any response to the almost unanimous answers that you received in the other thread? You know, where everybody told you that it was completely ridiculous NOT to call an immediate player control foul on a post player with the ball dislodging a defender with a legal stance. Have you changed your mind on what the right call should have been under those circumstances?

Just kinda wondering....because I haven't seen any response from you yet to the answers that you received in the other thread.

[PSidbury]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just kinda wondering....because I haven't seen any response from you yet to the answers that you received in the other thread.

This was my first reply within that thread...

Originally Posted by PSidbury

Regardless... I agree, it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on.

Always learning...

Thanks

I will say it again:
"it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on."

And even one more time, for those in the back:
"it is unsportsmanlike and not a basketball move... and the forceful displacement should have been cleaned-up early on."

However, my intent in these posts was always about focusing on the legality of the defender dropping to his hands and knees.

So, I started a new thread to focus on what really was my question, (taking the backing-down out of the equation), and less on all this peanut gallery "Why did you allow the milk to be spilled?" rhetoric.

Sheesh.

Thanks,
Paul

Originally Posted by PSidbury

However, my intent in these posts was always about focusing on the legality of the defender dropping to his hands and knees.

So, I started a new thread to focus on what really was my question, (taking the backing-down out of the equation), and less on all this peanut gallery "Why did you allow the milk to be spilled?" rhetoric.

Sheesh.

Thanks,
Paul

Hey Paul, I understand your frustration BUT you've been on the board for over half a year now. That being said, you should know how it goes 'round here... especially during the off-season when things are slower. With the great knowledge that one can obtain here also comes inside jokes, smart a$$ comments, topic switching, etc. I had trouble recognizing that fact when I first joined, but dealing with the guys/gals here helps one develop the thick-skinned quality that all great officials need.
Basically, nobody is forcing you to post on this "open to the public" forum, if you want direct answers w/out the hoopla... I suggest that you find a mentor!

[Camron Rust]

Regarding a defender dropping to knees/hands with the intent of letting the oppoent trip over them, I think you have 4 legitimate options....all against the defender:

1. personal foul (block)
2. intentional personal foul
3. T for unsportsmanlike conduct
4. flagrant T

Which get's called really depends on the game. If it is clearly an act intended to harm the opponent...with our without contact...#4. If there is tension and I feel many players are on edge for whatever reason but absent intent to harm, #3. Put the hammer down and stop the silliness right there. If the game has been completely uneventful and it just seems like a goofy play out of nowhere, #1.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

So, I started a new thread to focus on what really was my question, (taking the backing-down out of the equation), and less on all this peanut gallery "Why did you allow the milk to be spilled?" rhetoric.

Sheesh.

"Peanut gallery"? "Sheesh"?

From some rookie clown who obviously hasn't figured out which end of the whistle to blow yet?

You didn't learn a damn thing, did ya? You also still haven't learned what was really important about the whole situation that you originally posted either, have ya?

Hint.....it ain't some once-in million, might-never-happen situation. It's about a new official that very obviously doesn't know some very basic rules relating to illegal contact.

Lah me....peanut gallery.....

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

"Peanut gallery"? "Sheesh"?

From some rookie clown who obviously hasn't figured out which end of the whistle to blow yet?

You didn't learn a damn thing, did ya? You also still haven't learned what was really important about the whole situation that you originally posted either, have ya?

Hint.....it ain't some once-in million, might-never-happen situation. It's about a new official that very obviously doesn't know some very basic rules relating to illegal contact.

Lah me....peanut gallery.....

JR is right, but his words are rather harsh, so let me put it another way.

Here's what you need to do:

1. Admit that you F'd up the situation. -- No big deal. We all have at one time or another. That's how experience is gained.

2. Learn from it. -- Study the rules regarding displacement and do a better job in the future of calling PC fouls for that so that the situation does not degenerate into a mess.-- This is the key step.

You will be an improved official if you take something positive from this bad experience.

Good luck.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. Admit that you F'd up the situation. -- No big deal. We all have at one time or another.

Speak for yourself, grasshopper.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by PSidbury

However, my intent in these posts was always about focusing on the legality of the defender dropping to his hands and knees.

So, I started a new thread to focus on what really was my question, (taking the backing-down out of the equation), and less on all this peanut gallery "Why did you allow the milk to be spilled?" rhetoric.

Sheesh.

Thanks,
Paul

Your question on the legality of what the defender did was answered within the first couple of replies on BOTH threads. As far as the peanut gallery, spilled milk rhetoric - good grief. You screwed up by not calling the PC foul, and you screwed up by telling the coach what you did...that was pointed out to you and you didn't like it. So be it...we now know who can't handle constructive criticism.