Plays...

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

In regards to the blocking foul let me first say, there is absolutely positively no doubt in my mind that this should be a no call regardless of time and score or whatever else. Not saying you should use this as your whole equation but you have to know time and score here. It's a 2 point ball game and this kid is not affected in the least by this, what you could barely even call a slight bump or graze. He hits the shot and its tied, but no instead we have a possible 3 point play. Now if this were a legitimate guys to the floor or just one guy to the floor block/charge play then i might be ok with a foul even in this situation, but imo you cannot give a guy a cheapie like that and put him at the line to win the ball game. That's like calling a handcheck with 1 second left or calling a force out with .1! haha.... oh wait.... that happened!

.

What block? A block wasn't called. A hold (or perhaps a hand check was).

Aside form that, the video we saw is so fuzzy that you can't possibly conclude that there was or wasn't some foul in there. When the shooter cut through traffic, he might have gotten whacked across the arm or had someone hanging onto his arm. Can't tell from the video but that seems to be what the Lead's signal implies.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

ok I've went back and watched several different youtube videos of the georgetown/villanova game. It does look like the kid steps out of bounds, but here is my thoughts and breakdown of the play:

The kid gets bumped at .9 then it looks like his foot is out of bounds at .4. You're telling me that this D1 referee doesn't have a patient enough whistle to wait, at most, .9 seconds to whistle an OOB or a foul and declare an overtime. I'm a true believer in the rules, but I'm also a true believer of doing what is right for the game and I put that first above my crew, then my crew comes in second, and I come in last. I don't believe that this was right for this game. These two teams had obviously battled it out (the score was 53 to 53), especially on both teams defensive end. To call a foul such as that one does not entail doing what is right for the game. Now whether the contact by the kid was legitimate illegal contact... that is up for debate. IMO he stops short of contact, but it's just a play full of what ifs? What if he doesn't step on the line, does Bob Donato have anything? What if Brent Barry had just jumped into Fisher when he was in mid air floating toward him? This my friends is why we all have the hardest sport to officiate in the world, I do believe.

And if he doesn't, the other team and media will go on and on about how the ref missed the OOB call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) Aside from that, the video we saw is so fuzzy that you can't possibly conclude that there was or wasn't some foul in there.

2) And if he doesn't, the other team and media will go on and on about how the ref missed the OOB call.

1) Yup.

2) Yup, and it then gets posted on youtube exactly the same as the missed OOB call from the Duke-Belmont game was in play #1.

[just another ref]

Place the blame where it lies. Had an 8th grade boys game years ago. Team A ties the score with just a couple of seconds left in the game. Team B quickly inbounds. B1 breaks deep, guarded by A1. B2 throws a long pass into the frontcourt which B1 catches near the sideline. A1 tries to deflect the ball and clobbers B1. I have a whistle, and the clock stops showing 0:00, and we hear a tiny snippet of buzzer. B1 has 2 to make 1 to win the game. He makes the first. Coach A has a screaming fit...........................directed entirely at his player "WHY WERE YOU EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!"


Bilas: "There is no foul here. You don't call that."

Question for Mr. Bilas: WHY WAS HE EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Place the blame where it lies. Had an 8th grade boys game years ago. Team A ties the score with just a couple of seconds left in the game. Team B quickly inbounds. B1 breaks deep, guarded by A1. B2 throws a long pass into the frontcourt which B1 catches near the sideline. A1 tries to deflect the ball and clobbers B1. I have a whistle, and the clock stops showing 0:00, and we hear a tiny snippet of buzzer. B1 has 2 to make 1 to win the game. He makes the first. Coach A has a screaming fit...........................directed entirely at his player "WHY WERE YOU EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!"


Bilas: "There is no foul here. You don't call that."

Question for Mr. Bilas: WHY WAS HE EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!

Ok well I believe there is a difference in an obvious "clobber" and a "rub". Once again was the georgetown play a foul? that's up for debate. It's def. a b!tch of a play.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Ok well I believe there is a difference in an obvious "clobber" and a "rub". Once again was the georgetown play a foul? that's up for debate. It's def. a b!tch of a play.

What would the alternative have been to calling a foul? The player stepped OOB, do we ignore that also? (ps: I'm sure I'm rehashing the same argument made in the original thread)

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

What would the alternative have been to calling a foul? The player stepped OOB, do we ignore that also? (ps: I'm sure I'm rehashing the same argument made in the original thread)

Idk, whether you believe it is right or wrong I would have called an OOB call about .5 seconds late, so I'm not ignoring the violation I'm just calling it late and letting the horn go off, so you are not ignoring anything.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Idk, whether you believe it is right or wrong I would have called an OOB call about .5 seconds late, so I'm not ignoring the violation I'm just calling it late and letting the horn go off, so you are not ignoring anything.

Whatinthehell are you talking about..."allowing" the horn to go off so you don't have to make a call??? Wow...in the words of one of my esteemed assignors - "Time to grow a pair, pal."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Whatinthehell are you talking about..."allowing" the horn to go off so you don't have to make a call??? Wow...in the words of one of my esteemed assignors - "Time to grow a pair, pal."

That's not very professional. Hope he's not thin-skinned.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Whatinthehell are you talking about..."allowing" the horn to go off so you don't have to make a call??? Wow...in the words of one of my esteemed assignors - "Time to grow a pair, pal."

OH don't worry I have more than my share of "a pair". In fact mine are so big I have room for yours too. haha

I think if the ref waits for the step OOB anyway the horn goes off unless he can react to the OOB within .4 seconds.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Idk, whether you believe it is right or wrong I would have called an OOB call about .5 seconds late, so I'm not ignoring the violation I'm just calling it late and letting the horn go off, so you are not ignoring anything.

To me, this is the perfect example of how an official can determine the outcome of a game. The defensive player makes contact, the player that was contacted clearly steps OOB, and the official decides to ignore or purposely make a call late so that neither team can complete the play, including the appropriate penalties involved.

Why wouldn't you want to let the players decide the game, instead of inserting your influence by ignoring what the players have done?

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

To me, this is the perfect example of how an official can determine the outcome of a game. The defensive player makes contact, the player that was contacted clearly steps OOB, and the official decides to ignore or purposely make a call late so that neither team can complete the play, including the appropriate penalties involved.

Why wouldn't you want to let the players decide the game, instead of inserting your influence by ignoring what the players have done?

My prayers have been answered. Here's someone who actually gets it. Thank you.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

My prayers have been answered. Here's someone who actually gets it. Thank you.

Uh, oh...Mark agrees with me...maybe I should reconsider?

Well, let me re-phrase slightly. I do understand we should not be Rule Book Ronnies and look for the snot hanging off every plumber's nose. (Geeze, how many bad analogies can I fit in one sentence?) But there also seems to be a line of thinking that we should not call anything but the "obvious", because any call we make is the official deciding the game, not the players. Well, if we make the proper calls, the players are, in fact, deciding the game by their actions, legal and illegal. Any proper call we do not make is the official deciding the game.

In this particular play, if the bump happened in the middle of the court in the 1st half, we could discuss all day whether it should be a foul. We could even argue whether this particular bump near the sideline should've been a foul. But we cannot ignore both the bump and violation, especially since the violation occured before the clock expired.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Why wouldn't you want to let the players decide the game, instead of inserting your influence by ignoring what the players have done?

Agree completely.

Bottom line--you have 3 options:
1) call the foul.
2) ignore the foul and call the violation.
3) ignore the foul and also don't call the violation.

If you ignore the foul and call the violation, you just screwed the offensive team. If you ignore the foul and don't call the violation, you just screwed the defensive team. The only way that you don't screw anybody is to just call what happened.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree completely.

Bottom line--you have 3 options:
1) call the foul.
2) ignore the foul and call the violation.
3) ignore the foul and also don't call the violation.

If you ignore the foul and call the violation, you just screwed the offensive team. If you ignore the foul and don't call the violation, you just screwed the defensive team[/COLOR]. The only way that you don't screw anybody is to just call what happened.

So in your opinion what do you have? What does everybody have if both are getting screwed? Like I said its a B**CH OF A PLAY!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So in your opinion what do you have?

Exactly what I posted above.......

You call what happened. Yes, there was minimal contact. But that minimal contact forced a violation. It's the same as a defensive bump causing a player holding the ball to lose their balance and travel. The only call possible is a foul.