bad call almost costs kent st.

[mightyvol]

forum members:

tell me if i am wrong. i have been to numerous camps over the years and of the things that the clinicians emphasize is "see it happen,then make the call." i dont know if any of you were watching, but in the kent state game late, a player from kent was in the act of shooting and had drawn contact from the pitt defender. while in the act the referee blows his whistle and calls jump ball. the kent player continued through the whistle and made the shot. almost if not all of america thought the whistle was for a foul to be called on the pitt player. not the case, mr. stanley reynolds called it a jump ball. clearly it was the wrong call. this is a perfect example of "not" seeing it happen. this is also a perfect example of what guessing during a game will do to an official. you will get embarassed because of the end result. one of the things that i continue to preach to new officials is that, if you guess on plays or if you anticipate things you will eventually get into trouble. hopefully mr. reynolds will learn from this. i know we arent perfect, and i think mr. reynolds is a bigtime official. this is a situation that we can all learn from.

take care,
mightyvol

[Mark Dexter]

Unfortunately, none of the camera angles on the replay let you see as much as the official standing right on the baseline (this may come as a shock to some couch potato "rules gurus!").

Looking at the replay, the Kent State player was on his way down before releasing the shot. I'm willing to bet that his pivot foot returned to the floor before getting off the shot, and that's why the held ball was called (which actually benefits Kent State).

[BigDave]

Originally posted by mightyvol
almost if not all of america thought the whistle was for a foul to be called on the pitt player.

You must be good. To take a survey from "all of america" that quickly, you've got serious talent.

Until I have the same angle as the official on the floor, I'll reserve my opinions on his judgment of the call. By the way, fans always see fouls, but they rarely see held balls. Funny how that works...

[Mark Dexter]

I just watched a few minutes of SportsCenter. I'm appalled at how they had just about every person in Rupp Arena disagree with the held ball call (two/three KS players, KS coach, one Pitt player), but they were silent on the Krysiewski/Duke Sub/Bill Benedict incident!

[DrakeM]

My two cents worth?
Let that play finish all the way until both players are on the floor, and the ball is bouncing loose.
Then it's obvious you've had a held ball.
However, I'm not criticizing, since I've had dumb calls make their way from my whistle before as well.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by mightyvol
forum members:

tell me if i am wrong. i have been to numerous camps over the years and of the things that the clinicians emphasize is "see it happen,then make the call." i dont know if any of you were watching, but in the kent state game late, a player from kent was in the act of shooting and had drawn contact from the pitt defender. while in the act the referee blows his whistle and calls jump ball. the kent player continued through the whistle and made the shot. almost if not all of america thought the whistle was for a foul to be called on the pitt player. not the case, mr. stanley reynolds called it a jump ball. clearly it was the wrong call. this is a perfect example of "not" seeing it happen. this is also a perfect example of what guessing during a game will do to an official. you will get embarassed because of the end result. one of the things that i continue to preach to new officials is that, if you guess on plays or if you anticipate things you will eventually get into trouble. hopefully mr. reynolds will learn from this. i know we arent perfect, and i think mr. reynolds is a bigtime official. this is a situation that we can all learn from.

take care,
mightyvol

I may be nitpicking here, but this is not a chat room. We all know how to use the shift key to type and upper case letter (I know, that was a cheap shot), but all lower case letters makes it more difficult to seperate sentences.

1) Who cares what all of Amercia thought. The only thing that matters is that the official got the call correct. And he did. It was a held ball.

2) Due the the twisting of the two players involved, it was a difficult play to read, and the replays were not the best, but from the replays I did see (in slow motion), the Lead official made the correct call, and he had to do it in real time without the aid of instant replay.

3) I will admit that when I saw the original play, I thought that the Pitt player had fouled the Kent State player, but one has to remember that trying to officiate a basketball game on a televsion screen is nonsense. One does not get the good look that the officials really get. The only thing that I really look for when watching a game on television is block/charge fouls caused by guarding/screening. That is the only play you can really have any chance of making a judgement while watching the game on the small screen.

4) I had Pitt in the pool, even though my sister has her MBA from Kent State, and good friend (a former men's asst. at UNLV) who played at Kent State. So, yes I liked the call at the time, but remember after all was said and done, instant replay confirmed once again, that the official made the correct call in real time.

[zebra44]

I'm with DrakeM!

[RecRef]

[i]but they were silent on the Krysiewski/Duke Sub/Bill Benedict incident! [/B]

Due to high winds in my area last night the power kept cutting-off so I gave-up on the TV. If I may ask, what happened?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by DrakeM
My two cents worth?
Let that play finish all the way until both players are on the floor, and the ball is bouncing loose.
Then it's obvious you've had a held ball.
However, I'm not criticizing, since I've had dumb calls make their way from my whistle before as well.

Read NCAA Men's/Women's R4-S35-A1(b) and A.R. 26(a). The Lead official made the correct call.

[ChuckElias]

I agree with Drake, and have to disagree with Mark DeNucci. I saw the replays, too, and I don't think they prove much of anything. If, and it's a big if b/c you can't see it in any of the replays I saw, the Kent State player returned to the floor before releasing that ball, then yes, it was a good call. That's the only way you can have a held ball, b/c the Pitt player clearly did not prevent the try from being released. Otherwise, the official blew it, in my humble opinion.

When I first saw it, I thought to myself that he'd anticipated contact and blown the whistle. Then when he realized that there really was no significant contact, he had to come out with something. He didn't want to count the bucket and give the free throw, so he came out with the only other call at his disposal, the held ball.

Just my thoughts.

Chuck

[Bart Tyson]

DrakeM, Lets give the official the benefit of doubt. Lets assume the official was correct. He saw the shooter come to the floor before the release. Are you saying to wait on that call? The ball was not loose and it went in the basket. So what would you have the official do, wait til the ball goes in and bounces on the floor, then come in and say jump? I guess I just question why you think in that play you would have the official wait. I saw no replay showing the official did or did not make the correct call. So I have to believe the official made the correct call.

[K-low]

At the time I questioned the call as well, but with the various angles and replays I saw it was a good call. However, several questions come to mind....

How many of us in that position would make the same call? I think not many. Honestly, I would have had a no-call, partial block, good basket.

Why couldn't the announcers let it go? They really didn't even propose the possibility that it could be the right call, or even alternatively a n0-call. They had it FOUL all the way, and Kent State was victimized.

Finally, is it me or are these officials reluctant to call anything in the paint in close games under 3 minutes? I've noticed this all Tournament. They'll call cheapos at mid-court, but they seem to disappear down-under. Last night alone we saw this reluctance with Boozer and Knight (2x).
By trying to not become part of the outcome, they are, in fact, becoming part of the outcome.

Anyone??

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I agree with Drake, and have to disagree with Mark DeNucci. I saw the replays, too, and I don't think they prove much of anything. If, and it's a big if b/c you can't see it in any of the replays I saw, the Kent State player returned to the floor before releasing that ball, then yes, it was a good call. That's the only way you can have a held ball, b/c the Pitt player clearly did not prevent the try from being released. Otherwise, the official blew it, in my humble opinion.

When I first saw it, I thought to myself that he'd anticipated contact and blown the whistle. Then when he realized that there really was no significant contact, he had to come out with something. He didn't want to count the bucket and give the free throw, so he came out with the only other call at his disposal, the held ball.

Just my thoughts.

Chuck

Read the rules reference in my post just before your post. The official made the correct call.

[DrakeM]

Bart,
I'm not saying wait until the shot goes in before you call a jump ball. I'm saying (IMO) the only way you can call a jump ball on that play is if BOTH players come back down to the ground and then the ball comes loose, or some other effect of the loose ball.
I've been taught that a play has a beginning, middle and end.
Our challenge is to try and let the play finish before we put air in the whistle.
I've been to camps where I've called jump balls, and had the evaluator (Leon Wood) tell me to let the play come back to the floor, being held. I think in this case that would have prevented this call.
Now again, I'm not criticising the official. He saw what he saw, made the call, and stuck to his guns.
Gutsy call! And if as Chuck says, all those things were
going through his mind as he made the call, DANG! He's good!

[DrakeM]

Mark.
You can quote rules all you want.
Sometimes common sense HAS to kick in.
The best officials I know, have the ablility to
balance the two. Great rules knowledge, and the ability
to use common sense when applying them.