Rules Question!! Please help

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Also, a player who has one foot touching out of the key with the other foot in the air having last touched in the key is in the key....very different than the inbounds concept. To be out of the key, both feet must touch the floor out of the key.

Good point regarding three second violations. Rookie officials, please take note.

[BillyMac]

Here's an interesting out of bounds situation.

NFHS 9-3-2 Note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Here's an interesting out of bounds situation.

NFHS 9-3-2 Note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

Good point regarding the offensive team violation. Rookie officials, please take note.

However, please expand on the point at which a violation shall be called.

Play: the dribbler dribbles the ball by pushing it to the ground. While the ball is airborne (or touching the floor for that instant), the dribbler's feet touch OOB. Violation yet? If not, continue: the dribbler's feet touch back inbounds before the ball (bounced up again from the floor) is touched by the dribbler. Violation now?

[Adam]

It's a violation as soon as a player in control of the ball steps out of bounds. A dribbler is in control from the start.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Unless he's the thrower for a throw-in.

Different issue, of course. If the thrower touches over the OOB line, while still touching OOB (or not), he has carried the ball onto the court. That's not a matter of the definition of player location, he's still located OOB. Rather he's committed a specific throw-in violation.

Come to think of it, that's the only case that comes to mind where the location of the other foot matters.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's a violation as soon as a player in control of the ball steps out of bounds.

Rules citation?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules citation?

I believe that this play is made clearest with a case, rather than a rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I believe that this play is made clearest with a case, rather than a rule.

Rule or case book play, I don't care. I just want a reference.

Can you, or anybody else , cite a case book play that will back up Snaq's contention that it's a immediate violation as soon as the dribbler steps on the OOB line, even though the dribbler isn't in contact with the ball at that time?

Unfortunately I don't have my book with me today, but I do recall reading that

it's a immediate violation as soon as the dribbler steps on the OOB line, even though the dribbler isn't in contact with the ball at that time

in a NOTE under a rule.

Where's Nevada @?

[JugglingReferee]

Good call Ch1town! I forgot about that note's existance.

Rule 9, Section 3:
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not cause the ball to go out of bounds.
ART. 2 . . . A player shall not leave the floor for an unauthorized reason.
NOTE: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.
PENALTY (Section 3) The ball is dead when the violation occurs and is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation. (See 6-7-9 Exception 4)

I'll have to remember that notes can often relay the same information that a nice case would.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It's a violation as soon as a player in control of the ball steps out of bounds.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Rules citation?

9-3-1 note: The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary, even though he/she is not touching the ball while he/she is out of bounds.

[Jurassic Referee]

Cool, guys. Now point out to me where in that rule it actually says WHEN the violation occurs?

Please cite me some rules language, please, that states that the violation occurs on the step and not when the dribbler touches the ball again.

What is your call if the dribbler going up the right side steps on the OOB line without being in contact with the ball, and then hangs an immediate left and runs away from the ball without touching it again, and a teammate comes and gets the ball?

Note that the definition of a dribble states that it's ball movement caused by a player batting the ball to the floor. Rule 4-15-1.

Note that the definition of a "pass" in rule 4-31 says that it can be a player batting the ball to another player.

Soooooo, please tell me how y'all definitively know that the player that steps on an OOB line without touching the ball, and then doesn't touch it again, hasn't ENDED their dribble with a pass? Please tell me you how you can a violation on a "dribbler" who isn't a "dribbler" but is a "passer''...and by rules definition(4-31), has "passed" the ball before stepping on the line? Don't you stop being a "dribbler" when you "pass" the ball?

We've been through this one many times before- ad infinitum, ad nauseum. If anyone can cite definitive language to call a violation before the ball is touched again, please do so. Meanwhile, I ain't gonna argue it any further unless someone can cite some rules to back up their argument.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool, guys. Now point out to me where in that rule it actually says WHEN the violation occurs?

Please cite me some rules language, please, that states that the violation occurs on the step and not when the dribbler touches the ball again.

"The dribbler has committed a violation if he/she steps on or outside a boundary...."

It could have said: The dribbler has committed a violation when he touches the ball after stepping on or outside a boundary.

How do we know it was a dribble and not a pass? We were watching the game. How do you ever award two shots for a foul in the act of shooting?
That could have been a pass, too.

Whoa JR you took it a steps further.
I thought what we were discussing was a dribbler stepping OOB & continuing the dribble.

If the dribbler steps OOB but doesn't touch the ball again after that, then I believe one should pass on a violation. Even though I've never seen that sitch it doesn't mean that it won't happen.
That being said, watch it happen to me in a camp setting! At least I now have a point of reference to be prepared when/if that ever happens.

I love this site!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Cool, guys. Now point out to me where in that rule it actually says WHEN the violation occurs?

Please cite me some rules language, please, that states that the violation occurs on the step and not when the dribbler touches the ball again.

What is your call if the dribbler going up the right side steps on the OOB line without being in contact with the ball, and then hangs an immediate left and runs away from the ball without touching it again, and a teammate comes and gets the ball?

Note that the definition of a dribble states that it's ball movement caused by a player batting the ball to the floor. Rule 4-15-1.

Note that the definition of a "pass" in rule 4-31 says that it can be a player batting the ball to another player.

Soooooo, please tell me how y'all definitively know that the player that steps on an OOB line without touching the ball, and then doesn't touch it again, hasn't ENDED their dribble with a pass? Please tell me you how you can a violation on a "dribbler" who isn't a "dribbler" but is a "passer''...and by rules definition(4-31), has "passed" the ball before stepping on the line? Don't you stop being a "dribbler" when you "pass" the ball?

We've been through this one many times before- ad infinitum, ad nauseum. If anyone can cite definitive language to call a violation before the ball is touched again, please do so. Meanwhile, I ain't gonna argue it any further unless someone can cite some rules to back up their argument.

If your goal was to point out that a hole (may) exist in the rulebook, I agree with you. However, to call the play according to the rule, I think the Fed's intent is rather clear. And in the end, is it a dribble or is it a pass; isn't what why we get paid the big bucks.