Intentional vs Unsportsmanlike

[Oz Referee]

Forgive me if I have brought this up before.

Around 12 years ago FIBA changed the name of its intentional foul to an unsportsmanlike foul, the reasoning behind the change is that it is impossible for a referee (or anyone else) to judge someone's intentions, they can only judge the actions.

Given that the USA is (IMHO) a litigous (sp?) nation and that people are acutely aware of political correctness and their "rights" does anyone think that it is necessary or that it would be a good idea for the NFHS/NCAA/NBA to change the name of the "unsportsmanlike" foul?

I would be very interested in your opinions, and hopefully it won't just denegrate into a "metric FIBA is dumb" conversation

[Adam]

I don't think it's necessary. It's pretty well understood that "intent" is not required, by rule, for an intentional foul. Nor does the presence of intent preclude a common foul, by rule. Essentially, it's a discussion of semantics.

That said, just because it's not necessary or helpful doesn't mean it won't happen anyway.

[JRutledge]

Let us make something very clear. The NBA/NCAA/NFHS do not have all the same rules across the board. All organizations are run by different entities and have completely different focuses on the game of basketball. NCAA and NF have similar rules classifications but the nature of those levels is very different. So if the NBA creates a rule, there is no guarantee that the other levels will follow or want to follow. And the professionals are very different than amateur in legality of circumstances. I am also not a lawyer, but I have no idea what changing the name is going to mean from a legality standpoint. The name of the type of foul is not a consideration for what a foul is called. And if I am not mistaken, the NBA does not have any foul called an "intentional foul." Only NCAA and NF have such a classification of a foul.

There is not a one size fits all concern with rules as it relates to the legal system. The two things are not intertwined as you have suggested.

Peace

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Oz Referee

Given that the USA is (IMHO) a litigous (sp?) nation and that people are acutely aware of political correctness and their "rights" does anyone think that it is necessary or that it would be a good idea for the NFHS/NCAA/NBA to change the name of the "unsportsmanlike" foul?

It's a game. That game has nothing to do with your thoughts on American society.

[Camron Rust]

I agree with Oz...the name of the foul should be changed....or at least split into two: intentional and excessive.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Oz Referee

Forgive me if I have brought this up before.

Around 12 years ago FIBA changed the name of its intentional foul to an unsportsmanlike foul, the reasoning behind the change is that it is impossible for a referee (or anyone else) to judge someone's intentions, they can only judge the actions.

Given that the USA is (IMHO) a litigous (sp?) nation and that people are acutely aware of political correctness and their "rights" does anyone think that it is necessary or that it would be a good idea for the NFHS/NCAA/NBA to change the name of the "unsportsmanlike" foul?

By rules definition, intentional personal fouls under both NCAA and NFHS rulesets have nothing to do with unsporting conduct. The calling philosophy is that an intentional foul comprises taking away a natural "advantage" from the opponents.

I can't see any difference either in the FIBA stance of "judging the action" versus "judging the intention". They're exactly the same imo. You still have to judge" that the foul being committed has to meet the FIBA definition of an "unsporting" foul. That is no difference than what we have to do now for "intentional" fouls under both FED and NCAA rules.

Btw, I agree with BktBallRef. Your opening comments on American society were needless, extraneous, and irrelevant to what you wanted to discuss. You didn't want to get into FIBA bashing but you started off by "American Society" bashing instead. Pot..kettle...black.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Btw, I agree with BktBallRef. Your opening comments on American society were needless, extraneous, and irrelevant to what you wanted to discuss. You didn't want to get into FIBA bashing but you started off by "American Society" bashing instead. Pot..kettle...black.

Leave the guy alone, he can't help it.

We all know how small minded, provincial and ignorant the Aussies are. But we like them anyway.

[Scrapper1]

I don't think it's necessary to change, and I don't honestly think it's that big a deal. But we've certainly had discussions here on the forum about the "semantics" of the intentional foul, and we've often dealt with new officials who have been confused by the the name. I don't think it would hurt anything to change the intentional foul to an "excessive foul" or something like that.

Secondly, I don't see any America-bashing in Oz's post. Does anybody seriously deny that America is a highly litigious society? We invented the "frivolous lawsuit", for crying out loud. Does anybody deny that we live in a society where there is increasing pressure to use "politically correct" terms and conform to certain opinions on sensitive topics? Obviously, this is not the main topic of this thread, and I also agree with Jurassic that Oz's comments were unnecessary; but I honestly think the "America-bashing" comments are misdirected. JMO

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think it's necessary to change, and I don't honestly think it's that big a deal. But we've certainly had discussions here on the forum about the "semantics" of the intentional foul, and we've often dealt with new officials who have been confused by the the name. I don't think it would hurt anything to change the intentional foul to an "excessive foul" or something like that.

Secondly, I don't see any America-bashing in Oz's post. Does anybody seriously deny that America is a highly litigious society? We invented the "frivolous lawsuit", for crying out loud. Does anybody deny that we live in a society where there is increasing pressure to use "politically correct" terms and conform to certain opinions on sensitive topics? Obviously, this is not the main topic of this thread, and I also agree with Jurassic that Oz's comments were unnecessary; but I honestly think the "America-bashing" comments are misdirected. JMO

True story:

My friend Joanne went to NYS to do some skiing a few years back.

This particular hill had two small runs merge to a large run for the second half of the run. (Picture a "Y" spread out over a hill.)

Joanne is an accomplished skier, and on one of her runs, when merging with the other section, had a unaccomplished skier "ski into her". Joanne went down like a brick, she says. The other skier, as it turns out, is from NYS. Not knowing Joanne is Canadian, and therefore seemingly not knowing that suing would never enter Joanne's mind, the NYS skier almost begged Joanne to "please don't sue me". She was happy when Joanne got up, and skied down the rest of the hill.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Obviously, this is not the main topic of this thread, and I also agree with Jurassic that Oz's comments were unnecessary.....

That was basically the point that Tony made. The comments had nothing to do with the difference between basketball foul definitions. Fwiw , I just agreed with Tony.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I don't think it's necessary to change, and I don't honestly think it's that big a deal. But we've certainly had discussions here on the forum about the "semantics" of the intentional foul, and we've often dealt with new officials who have been confused by the the name. I don't think it would hurt anything to change the intentional foul to an "excessive foul" or something like that.

My experience (FIBA, of course) is that the new name helped somewhat in getting the judgment correct and in cutting down complaints by coaches and fans.

There's still people (also coaches) who ask for "fallo intenzionale" instead of "antisportivo" (this is the Italian translation of unsportsmanlike). But there's people (also coaches) who don't understand the "over and back" rule which changed much more than 12 years ago to become more similar to the USA one, so I guess it's impossible that a habit vanishes completely.

Perhaps the adjective "unsportsmanlike" is not the best choice, but I think that "intentional" conveys a meaning which is not intended by the modern interpretation of the rule (Fed, NCAA or FIBA): judge the action, not the intention, as others have said. It's difficult to explain to someone, who in general doesn't agree with officials' decisions (a coach, for example ), that we ruled a contact "intentional" without guessing at the player's intention or that a deliberate common foul is not "intentional".

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

We invented the "frivolous lawsuit", for crying out loud.

Link, or other reference please?

Does anybody deny that we live in a society where there is increasing pressure to use "politically correct" terms and conform to certain opinions on sensitive topics? JMO

Yeah that's certainly true. Nowhere else on the planet do people observe political correctness with such a religious fervor. In fact everywhere else on the planet you can say what you want how you want when you want where you want freely & without reservation.

Yep, that's certainly true.

Yep.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Yeah that's certainly true. Nowhere else on the planet do people observe political correctness with such a religious fervor. In fact everywhere else on the planet you can say what you want how you want when you want where you want freely & without reservation.

Shut up.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Shut up.

See what I mean??!!!

If I was posting this from Beijing you would have left me alone!

I oughta sue his azz for that...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by eg-italy

It's difficult to explain to someone, who in general doesn't agree with officials' decisions (a coach, for example ), that we ruled a contact "intentional" without guessing at the player's intention or that a deliberate common foul is not "intentional".

It sounds like that there isn't really that much difference between the concept in all rulesets, except for maybe the "title" and the penalty.