Call The T

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I'm calling it based on the violation of the rule cited. That's the way it's written. The context isn't really relevant to me.

And THAT is exactly what makes the difference in properly applying most rules.

[Back In The Saddle]

Wow. I'm flabbergasted by the number of people who want this not to be an automatic T at the HS level.

I will say that if I were working the KU/Memphis game, I wouldn't have called the T either. I don't think it fit that game. That game just IS different. However, agreeing with Billy Packer about anything is enough to make me think twice about my position!

But on a Friday night at my local HS, there's a very high probability that I'm calling the T. For nothing more than committing an unsporting foul, if you insist on having a rule cited to back it up.

When the removing the jersey rule was added, there were a whole bunch of folks who insisted they didn't need a specific rule to address this. That it was just another sportsmanship issue, and they'd already got a rule to handle that. Same thing with the taunting and baiting rule. I don't need the Fed to add a special rule to take care of bidness.

One of the very first HS camps I went to, the crew let a kid get away with either slamming or kicking the ball (I don't recall which). But I remember the evaluator's rebuke: "That's as close as it gets to automatic. If you won't call that, what will you call?"

And slamming the ball IS as close automatic as it gets. The times that I have not called this, somebody has consistently complained. The times I have called it, nobody has complained. Why? Because anybody who has been around basketball for any length of time knows you don't do that.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

One of the very first HS camps I went to, the crew let a kid get away with either slamming or kicking the ball (I don't recall which). But I remember the evaluator's rebuke: "That's as close as it gets to automatic. If you won't call that, what will you call?"

And slamming the ball IS as close automatic as it gets. The times that I have not called this, somebody has consistently complained. The times I have called it, nobody has complained. Why? Because anybody who has been around basketball for any length of time knows you don't do that.

I used to consider this an "automatic" but, in my experience, reaction has been the exact opposite. I've been chewed out at camps for calling this a T.

Nowadays, I try to take the complete circumstance into account. Last night's game - probably no T.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Wow. I'm flabbergasted by the number of people who want this not to be an automatic T at the HS level.

I'm also surprised by the number of people who would rather debate the nuances of the rule for calling a T rather than just calling it what it is...An unacceptable behavior for a varsity HS player...worthy of a T, whichever rule you want to use.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I'm also surprised by the number of people who would rather debate the nuances of the rule for calling a T rather than just calling it what it is...An unacceptable behavior for a varsity HS player...worthy of a T, whichever rule you want to use.

A big part of being on this board is determining which rules apply. The point being made on the rule you cited is that it in no way applied to the scenario.

And just so you know, in a HS setting that I work, normally a slam of the ball like that will elicit a T from me. But in the exact scenario as happened Monday, it probably wouldn't.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I'm also surprised by the number of people who would rather debate the nuances of the rule for calling a T rather than just calling it what it is...An unacceptable behavior for a varsity HS player...worthy of a T, whichever rule you want to use.

Exactly what behavior was unacceptable? There seems to be the opinion of some that the very act of slamming the ball to the ground should be punished. Others feel there should be some leeway based upon the game situation.

Let's look at the game situation: Under 1:00, Memphis has the ball and a 2 point lead. Kansas fouls #14 (Douglas-Roberts), #14 for Memphis goes to the line for 2 FT's. #14 misses both FT's, but #2 (Dozier) for Memphis gets the rebound, passes to #23 (Rose), Kansas fouls Rose, and #14 ends up with the ball as his team is granted a TO. #14 then slams the ball to the ground, it bounces in the air to a Kansas player, who then also bounces the ball hard.

Let's recap: Memphis has a 2 point lead, has the ball, has 2 FT's coming up, and has just called a TO. So, why did #14 slam the ball hard? Was it because he was upset with the foul call? Was he showing any disrespect to the officials? Was he taunting the other team? Of course, the answer to these is no; he was simply quite obviously upset with himself for missing those 2 FT's a few moments earlier. So this seems to eliminate the unsporting behavior aspect. The TO had just been granted, so there is no obvious delay in being able to put the ball back in play.

Most of the time when a player slams the ball down, it is in response to getting a foul or violation called on them. That's why the T is called - for the unsporting behavior of the reaction, not the specific act. You will usually see the two happen together, and perhaps that's how people have come to associate the "slam" with the T. However, you will not find "Slam the ball down in a forceful manner" as one of the items listed in Rule 10. There is a subtle difference, and that is why those officials were working that particular game - they know that difference. When I saw the play, my reaction was "Uh, oh...", but as I processed what actually happened, I saw why the officials did not penalize it. The more I think about it, the more I hope I would call it the same way in a high school game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Most of the time when a player slams the ball down, it is in response to getting a foul or violation called on them. That's why the T is called - for the unsporting behavior of the reaction, not the specific act. You will usually see the two happen together, and perhaps that's how people have come to associate the "slam" with the T. However, you will not find "Slam the ball down in a forceful manner" as one of the items listed in Rule 10. There is a subtle difference, and that is why those officials were working that particular game - they know that difference. When I saw the play, my reaction was "Uh, oh...", but as I processed what actually happened, I saw why the officials did not penalize it. The more I think about it, the more I hope I would call it the same way in a high school game.

Well said.
You've also spelled out my thought process through this discussion.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You've also spelled out my thought process through this discussion.

Uh, oh...I'm thinking like you?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Uh, oh...I'm thinking like you?

I'd offer some of Padgett's meds, but he seems to be doing well and I wouldn't want to take any away from him.

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The more I think about it, the more I hope I would call it the same way in a high school game.

I can respect your opinion, and judging from the poll on this topic 75% of the officials her agree with you. But I guess my viewpoint differs here because I think a HS player has a different standard of behavior than a D1 player in a nationally televised championship game.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I can respect your opinion, and judging from the poll on this topic 75% of the officials her agree with you. But I guess my viewpoint differs here because I think a HS player has a different standard of behavior than a D1 player in a nationally televised championship game.

It's not about the game venue.

It is about whether or not you judge the act to be an unsporting act. For some of us it clearly was not for the reasons M&M summed up nicely.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

I can respect your opinion, and judging from the poll on this topic 75% of the officials her agree with you. But I guess my viewpoint differs here because I think a HS player has a different standard of behavior than a D1 player in a nationally televised championship game.

And I would respectfully submit that you are missing the point. It doesn't matter that it was nationally televised, or that it was a Championship game, or that it was a "big" game, or that it was an NCAA game...what matters is that the player was NOT demonstrating unsportsmanlike behavior. Frustration is not unsportsmanlike - it's oart of any game. If the method of displaying that frustration is unsportsmanlike, then we penalize it. As has been said several times in this thread - the ball slam was NOT in response to a call or no-call, and was not directed at the officials, and was not a taunt directed at the other team, and did not delay the game...there really is no reason to call a T for this - not even at the HS level.

[JRutledge]

We have had this discussion before, but this is the difference between a HS official and an official that works a lot of college. The HS official is trying to prove they need to call something, while the college official is usually trained to be a little more restraint and use a little bit of common sense. That is why you see officials spending a lot of time trying to justify this as a foul.

Peace

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Most of the time when a player slams the ball down, it is in response to getting a foul or violation called on them. That's why the T is called - for the unsporting behavior of the reaction, not the specific act.

Very well stated...emphasis added.