T or not a T ?

[RefTip]

I brought this up previously ( but not as a new thread ) and didn't really get it cleared up . Any help is appreciated .

This situation came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench . They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks

[jdw3018]

Rule is not entirely clear, but I'd side with being able to call it, depending on your definition of "participating":

10-1-6...Have more than five team members participating simultaneously.
PENALTY: (Art. 6) Penalized if discovered while being violated.

[Jurassic Referee]

No "T". You can only penalize it if you discover it while it's being violated. NFHS rule 10-1-6. and case book play 10.1.6(b).

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Rule is not entirely clear, but I'd side with being able to call it, depending on your definition of "participating":

10-1-6...Have more than five team members participating simultaneously.
PENALTY: (Art. 6) Penalized if discovered while being violated.

if the coach wants to burn a timeout to keep away from the T then I think we need to let him. Besides that I am not sure that walking off of the floor to a timeout is participating....who is to say that another person from the bench didn't run out to greet their team mates...I know that isn't how it happened but it is plausible enough since they didn't know where the 6th player came from to begin with...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

Rule is not entirely clear, but I'd side with being able to call it, depending on your definition of "participating":

10-1-6...Have more than five team members participating simultaneously.
PENALTY: (Art. 6) Penalized if discovered while being violated.

Case book play 10.1.6(b) is clear.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Case book play 10.1.6(b) is clear.

I guess I'm not sure that this case play applies. It was brought to their attention after the game had ended in that situation.

This seems to me to be a different situation, as 6 players are noticed during a dead ball. If you noticed the 6 players after a violation and before beginning the subsequent throw-in, would you not call the technical foul? I'm sure you would, but want a rationale for treating these situations differently.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

This seems to me to be a different situation, as 6 players are noticed during a dead ball. If you noticed the 6 players after a violation and before beginning the subsequent throw-in, would you not call the technical foul? I'm sure you would, but want a rationale for treating these situations differently.

Don't be so sure. I wouldn't. They weren't participating when I noticed it. Now they aren't going to participate until the 6th player is sitting on the bench.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't be so sure. I wouldn't. They weren't participating when I noticed it. Now they aren't going to participate until the 6th player is sitting on the bench.

Are you sure they aren't participating? I'm looking through my Rules Book right now and can't find a definition of "participating." Doesn't mean it isn't there, but I'd have a hard time not penalizing six players on the court when I noticed it after I called a travel and it was obvious they were playing with six before I called it.

Edit to add: If this was only to be penalized during a live ball, it should say so.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I guess I'm not sure that this case play applies. It was brought to their attention after the game had ended in that situation.

This seems to me to be a different situation, as 6 players are noticed during a dead ball. If you noticed the 6 players after a violation and before beginning the subsequent throw-in, would you not call the technical foul? I'm sure you would, but want a rationale for treating these situations differently.

Before the subsequent throw-in?

1) Before ball is at disposal of thrower-in I would employ the famous "preventive officiating" and hold up play until 6th person leaves the court. (Something I did last week)

or

2) If ball is at disposal of thrower-in then the ball is live and you penalize accordingly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I guess I'm not sure that this case play applies. It was brought to their attention after the game had ended in that situation.

This seems to me to be a different situation, as 6 players are noticed during a dead ball. If you noticed the 6 players after a violation and before beginning the subsequent throw-in, would you not call the technical foul? I'm sure you would, but want a rationale for treating these situations differently.

Um, no I wouldn't. You have to notice 6 players participating during a live ball. They're not violating any rule until the ball becomes live.

If you look at part(a) of that case play, it says that you can penalize the team after the ball becomes dead if you had knowledge that 6 players were actually participating at the same time. In the original post, it was stated that the officials were not aware that the team had 6 players participating until after the ball became dead. Without having previous knowledge that 6 players were participating, you can't retroactively penalize that team. That's what part (b) of that case play is telling us.

[Texas Aggie]

I only have the '05 and '06 casebook handy, but if the play sitch is the same, the only reason the ruling was no T was the fact that time had run out. Just because the clock is stopped and they aren't playing doesn't mean you don't have an infraction going on then -- per the rule, just like you wouldn't ignore the infraction if you didn't realize the 6 were on the court until you called a foul or violation for other reasons. You still have the same deal: 6 on the floor (even if leaving) during a dead ball.

I do, however, think (or at least the case can be made that) the casebook play applies to end of quarter situations -- not just end of game. But I don't think it applies to time out situations like clock stoppages and called TOs. The rule doesn't say that and neither does the case play. Don't read more into the case play or ruling then what is there. We have to assume the committee was aware of different situations and made the ruling based on this one.

[Texas Aggie]

6 players participating during a live ball

I don't have the rule book handy, so I'll ask: does the rule use that language? If not, where are you getting that interp from?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

1) Before ball is at disposal of thrower-in I would employ the famous "preventive officiating" and hold up play until 6th person leaves the court. (Something I did last week).

Even if the 6th player had been on the court during the live ball preceding the violation? I'm not talking about during a substitution process, and then you count and realize there are 6 out there and you wait until a player leaves, I'm talking about a situation where there has been 6 on the court, you blow a travel, everyone heads the other way and then as you get ready to administer the throw-in you realize that A has (and has had) 6 players on the court.

[jdw3018]

Yes, the rule is just as I typed it in post #2.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

You still have the same deal: 6 on the floor (even if leaving) during a dead ball.

Can you cite a rule saying that it's illegal to have 6 players on the floor during a dead ball? If you can, please do. I'm not aware of one.