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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Um, no I wouldn't. You have to notice 6 players participating during a live ball. They're not violating any rule until the ball becomes live.

If you look at part(a) of that case play, it says that you can penalize the team after the ball becomes dead if you had knowledge that 6 players were actually participating at the same time. In the original post, it was stated that the officials were not aware that the team had 6 players participating until after the ball became dead. Without having previous knowledge that 6 players were participating, you can't retroactively penalize that team. That's what part (b) of that case play is telling us.
I apologize for assuming. I just don't see that the case play applies. It involves the end of a game, not a dead ball during a game.

I'm more than open to being convinced, but I haven't been yet. I simply don't see not penalizing A when the rule does not explicitly state "during a live ball".
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Can you cite a rule saying that it's illegal to have 6 players on the floor during a dead ball? If you can, please do. I'm not aware of one.
Can you cite a rule stating that "participating" only involves a live ball situation?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
I simply don't see not penalizing A when the rule does not explicitly state "during a live ball".
Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Can you cite a rule saying that it's illegal to have 6 players on the floor during a dead ball? If you can, please do. I'm not aware of one.

Agreed, if that was the case, we'd have a T on just about every substitution.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fullor30
Agreed, if that was the case, we'd have a T on just about every substitution.
Yup.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.
Would you call a flagrant technical foul on a player who changed his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official if you discovered it during a dead ball? It has the exact same language.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Cool. Find a rule that states it's illegal to have 6 players on the court during a dead ball.

If they'd wanted a mandatory "T", they would have used the language "Penalized when discovered", as they do in other rules.
There is obviously no rule that it's illegal to have 6 players on the court at any time during a dead ball. There's also no rule stating it's permissible to have more than 5 on the court during a dead ball. Is it okay for every bench player to step onto the court during the interval between a violation and the subsequent throw-in?

Again, I'm waiting for the definition of "participating." It's what this whole discussion revolves around.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefTip
I brought this up previously ( but not as a new thread ) and didn't really get it cleared up . Any help is appreciated .

This situation came up last year while I was watching our JV team play . Our team comes out of timeout and there are 6 players on the floor . Play continues for about 20 seconds and I guess our coach realizes this and calls timeout. The two officials did not realize there were 6 players until after the timeout was called and the players were going to the bench . They then called a technical on our team for having 6 players. I was sitting next to another official and we were trying to determine if this was correct since the ball was dead when the violation was realized. After looking through the rules book I believe they got it right but wanted to get confirmation.

Thanks
Sounds like someone cannot count to 10
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
Would you call a flagrant technical foul on a player who changed his/her number without reporting it to the scorer and an official if you discovered it during a dead ball? It has the exact same language.
No, I sureasheck wouldn't call a "T". Why? Because the player is no longer participating.

It uses the exact same language as 6 players participating does. You have to discover it while the player is participating, exactly like it says in both 10-1-6 and 10-3-1. If you didn't discover it while the player was participating, it's too late when the ball becomes dead and the player is no longer participating.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 04:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
No, I sureasheck wouldn't call a "T". Why? Because the player is no longer participating.

It uses the exact same language as 6 players participating does. You have to discover it while the player is participating, exactly like it says in both 10-1-6 and 10-3-1. If you didn't discover it while the player was participating, it's too late when the ball becomes dead and the player is no longer participating.
JR, I really appreciate all your insight, but you've yet to answer the critical question - what is the definition of participating? Players don't become bench personnel at each dead ball. They are still players. That indicates to me they are "participating" unless someone can provide me a definition that states that participating only applies to live balls.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 05:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
JR, I really appreciate all your insight, but you've yet to answer the critical question - what is the definition of participating? Players don't become bench personnel at each dead ball. They are still players. That indicates to me they are "participating" unless someone can provide me a definition that states that participating only applies to live balls.
If you want to play linguistic games, be my guest. I'm done. I'm just repeating myself.

I told you what the rule is and I gave you the accompanying rules citations. If you don't want to believe that's how the concept of "penalized if discovered while being violated" is interpreted and applied.....versus "penalized when discovered", I suggest you ask your local or state rules interpreter for their interpretation. Let us know when you get your answer.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 06:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
If you want to play linguistic games, be my guest.
I'll ask and let you know when I get an answer. It's what I tried to do here.

I'm sorry you think my legitimate question (how does the NFHS define "participate"?) is a linguistic game. It was the one question I asked consistently and the only question that matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
I told you what the rule is and I gave you the accompanying rules citations.
Actually, I posted the rule. You gave a case book citation I don't believe applies.

I know you said you're done, but if you can cite that the players on the court cease to "participate" at every dead ball, I'll be in complete agreement with you. I always respect your positions on rulings, but in attempting to have as complete rules knowledge as possible, I'm simply looking for a definition of what "participating" means.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 06:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdw3018
Can you cite a rule stating that "participating" only involves a live ball situation?
Without a rule citation to define it, I think it's safe to assume the rules committee is thinking of the common definition of the word. By common definition, no player is really participating in the game during a dead ball when the clock is stopped.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 06:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
Without a rule citation to define it, I think it's safe to assume the rules committee is thinking of the common definition of the word. By common definition, no player is really participating in the game during a dead ball when the clock is stopped.
And I think this is probably where the disagreement comes in. I would consider the ten players on the court setting up/defending an inbounds play or getting into their designated lane spaces to be participating. They are still "players" by definition, not bench personnel, and that's where I'm getting my interpretation of participating.

Seems most disagree with that, though, so I'll stop until I hear something more from the state. Good thing I don't have any more games this year - certainly after this discussion this situation was bound to happen in my next game!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 04, 2008, 10:38pm
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10.1.6 b ...

10.1.6 Situation: With Team A leading 51 to 50, a held ball is called. A6 properly reports and enters the game. Time is then called by Team A. The clock shows two seconds remaining in the game. After play is resumed by a throw-in, the officials: (a) recognize that A has six players competing, but cannot get the clock stopped; or (b) do not notice Team A has six players on the court. Following the throw-in, time expires. Team B now reports to the officials that Team A had six players on the court.
Ruling: In (a), since one of the officials had knowledge that Team A had six players participating simultaneously and this was detected prior to time expiring, a technical foul is assessed against Team A. In (b), since it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after time had expired, it is too late to assess any penalty.
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