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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 09:45am
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carrying and traveling

during the UT/Vandy game, a discussion broke out on what carrying and traveling actually is. If a player dribbles the ball above his head, is it a violation? If a player dribbles the ball and touches it with his opposite hand without hitting the floor again, is it a violation?
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:01am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brihi1
during the UT/Vandy game, a discussion broke out on what carrying and traveling actually is. If a player dribbles the ball above his head, is it a violation? If a player dribbles the ball and touches it with his opposite hand without hitting the floor again, is it a violation?
The NFHS Case Book, in one of their Fact/Fiction sections, specifically says that dribbling above the head is not illegal. Of course, you can't have your hand under the ball, like with any other dribble. But, there is no restriction on how high the dribble can go. It's sloppy, but not illegal.

JT
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:02am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brihi1
during the UT/Vandy game, a discussion broke out on what carrying and traveling actually is. If a player dribbles the ball above his head, is it a violation? If a player dribbles the ball and touches it with his opposite hand without hitting the floor again, is it a violation?
No.

Yes (if I'm interpreting your description correctly).
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:04am
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Traveling

Quote:
Originally Posted by brihi1
during the UT/Vandy game, a discussion broke out on what carrying and traveling actually is. If a player dribbles the ball above his head, is it a violation? If a player dribbles the ball and touches it with his opposite hand without hitting the floor again, is it a violation?
Traveling by definition:

Art. 1... A player who catches the ball with both feet on the floor, may pivot, using either foot. When one foot is lifted, the other is the pivot foot.

Art. 2... A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot as follows:
a. If both feet are off the floor and the player lands:
1. Simultaneously on both feet, either foot may be the pivot.
2. On one foot followed by the other, the first foot to touch is the pivot.
3. On one foot, the player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.
b. If one foot is on the floor:
1. It is the pivot when the other foot touches in a step.
2. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case.

Art. 3... After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
c. The pivot foot may not be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Art. 4... After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal.
b. Neither foot may be lifted before the ball is released, to start a dribble.

Art. 5... A player holding the ball:
a. May not touch the floor with a knee or any other part of the body other than hand or foot.
b. After gaining control while on the floor and touching with other than hand or foot, may not attempt to get up or stand.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:13am
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When a dribble ends...

Quote:
Originally Posted by brihi1
during the UT/Vandy game, a discussion broke out on what carrying and traveling actually is. If a player dribbles the ball above his head, is it a violation? If a player dribbles the ball and touches it with his opposite hand without hitting the floor again, is it a violation?

Art. 4... The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. An opponent bats (intentionally strikes the ball with the hand(s)) the ball.
e. The ball becomes dead.
NOTE: 1 It is not possible for a player to travel during a dribble.
NOTE: 2 A player is not dribbling while slapping the ball during a jump, when a pass rebounds from his/her hand, when he/she fumbles, or when he/she bats a rebound or pass away from other players who are attempting to get it. The player is not in control under these conditions.
NOTE: 3 It is a dribble when a player stands still and bounces the ball. It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefftuck
Of course, you can't have your hand under the ball, like with any other dribble.
Wanna bet?

There is no restriction anywhere in the rules about a dribble ending just because the dribbler's hand is under the ball. An example of that would be a player tipping/tapping the ball upward from the bottom and then letting it bounce before touching it again. That's perfectly legal. There used to be a case play stating that it was a violation if the dribbler's hand in contact with the ball went past 90 degrees. The FED took that out because...well....it was wrong. You now call the play using your judgment as to whether the ball actually did come to rest in the dribbler's hand or not.

Welcome to the forum, Jeff.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Wanna bet?
Right. I was imprecise in my language. I meant you couldn't carry or hold the ball. Tapping or batting the ball doesn't necessarily stop a dribble.

BTW, I'm curious about the answers to the section question. The NFHS rule book says that if a ball is batted into the air during a dribble, it must hit the hit the floor before being touched again. However, if a dribbler presses the ball toward the floor, releases that hand, then touches with the other hand before it hits the floor, is that illegal? If the dribbler bats the ball sideways, then presses with the other hand toward the floor? If the dribbler bats the ball at a 45 degree angle downward toward the floor and his other hand, then dribbles with the other hand before it hits the floor? In none of these cases, did he ever touch with two hands simultaneously. But what gets me is does "batted into the air" imply that the ball gets batted upward?

I ask because this came up in a game recently.

JT

Last edited by jefftuck; Wed Feb 27, 2008 at 10:48am.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:56am
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back in the 80s, USL (the old Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana) had a PG named Drexel Allen that used to dribble the ball almost up to his shoulder height (legally) and he was well known for it. He would lull the defender to sleep with this high dribble style and as soon as the defender would reach, Drexel would get really low with the ball and take off.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefftuck
The NFHS rule book says that if a ball is batted into the air during a dribble, it must hit the hit the floor before being touched again. However, if a dribbler presses the ball toward the floor, releases that hand, then touches with the other hand before it hits the floor, is that illegal? If the dribbler bats the ball sideways, then presses with the other hand toward the floor? If the dribbler bats the ball at a 45 degree angle downward toward the floor and his other hand, then dribbles with the other hand before it hits the floor? In none of these cases, did he ever touch with two hands simultaneously. But what gets me is does "batted into the air" imply that the ball gets batted upward?
Jeff, the easiest way to figure all of these out is just to get into the definitions in the rules.

By definition, a dribble starts when the ball is batted or pushed to the floor(R4-15-1). Anything that happens after that is during a dribble, and the applicable rules are valid until the dribble has ended. The rule that you're now referring to--rule 4-15-2- is a little hazy because of the "bat" terminology that is used. If it's not 100% clear, that's when you get out the ol' case book to see if that'll help. Voila!. Casebook play 4.15.4SitDCOMMENT gives you your answer when it states definitively that it's a violation to touch the ball twice during a dribble before the ball touches the floor again. That should answer all of your questions above.

Sound OK?
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 05:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Jeff, the easiest way to figure all of these out is just to get into the definitions in the rules.

By definition, a dribble starts when the ball is batted or pushed to the floor(R4-15-1). Anything that happens after that is during a dribble, and the applicable rules are valid until the dribble has ended. The rule that you're now referring to--rule 4-15-2- is a little hazy because of the "bat" terminology that is used. If it's not 100% clear, that's when you get out the ol' case book to see if that'll help. Voila!. Casebook play 4.15.4SitDCOMMENT gives you your answer when it states definitively that it's a violation to touch the ball twice during a dribble before the ball touches the floor again. That should answer all of your questions above.

Sound OK?
Yes, but that case specifically says that the ball is batted up into the air over an opponent. Then, in the discussion of the case, it says that it is illegal to touch the ball twice. Now, can you look at the answer or discussion and completely ignore the case that it was answering. Clearly, if the ball is batted up over an opponent, it is illegal to touch it again before it hits the floor. I'm not sure you can take the answer to this case and say that regardless of what the original question is, this answer says you can never touch it twice before it hits the floor (during a dribble).

JT
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jefftuck
Yes, but that case specifically says that the ball is batted up into the air over an opponent. Then, in the discussion of the case, it says that it is illegal to touch the ball twice. Now, can you look at the answer or discussion and completely ignore the case that it was answering. Clearly, if the ball is batted up over an opponent, it is illegal to touch it again before it hits the floor. I'm not sure you can take the answer to this case and say that regardless of what the original question is, this answer says you can never touch it twice before it hits the floor (during a dribble).
Well, I tried.....

My advice is to take it to your association/state interpreter. Maybe you'll believe them.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Well, I tried.....

My advice is to take it to your association/state interpreter. Maybe you'll believe them.
You should stick to being the in your face take no hostages evil prick. It suits you better.

More entertaining too.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 06:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
You should stick to being the in your face take no hostages evil prick. It suits you better.

More entertaining too.
Yeah, I guess. Why try to be something you're aren't?

Btw, shut up.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 07:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_ref
You should stick to being the in your face take no hostages evil prick. It suits you better.

More entertaining too.
He sent his super villian/evil genius costume to the dry cleaners, and they lost it!

The whole in your face thing just doesn't play if he's not wearing the cape and the shiny knee-high boots.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 07:22pm
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In his defense, other than the above mentioned case play, how can we tell it is a violation to touch the ball with one hand followed by the other before it hits the floor? This play deals specifically with batting the ball over the head of the opponent. I understand his confusion.
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