carrying and traveling

[jefftuck]

Originally Posted by brihi1

during the UT/Vandy game, a discussion broke out on what carrying and traveling actually is. If a player dribbles the ball above his head, is it a violation? If a player dribbles the ball and touches it with his opposite hand without hitting the floor again, is it a violation?

The NFHS Case Book, in one of their Fact/Fiction sections, specifically says that dribbling above the head is not illegal. Of course, you can't have your hand under the ball, like with any other dribble. But, there is no restriction on how high the dribble can go. It's sloppy, but not illegal.

JT

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jefftuck

Of course, you can't have your hand under the ball, like with any other dribble.

Wanna bet?

There is no restriction anywhere in the rules about a dribble ending just because the dribbler's hand is under the ball. An example of that would be a player tipping/tapping the ball upward from the bottom and then letting it bounce before touching it again. That's perfectly legal. There used to be a case play stating that it was a violation if the dribbler's hand in contact with the ball went past 90 degrees. The FED took that out because...well....it was wrong. You now call the play using your judgment as to whether the ball actually did come to rest in the dribbler's hand or not.

Welcome to the forum, Jeff.

[jefftuck]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Wanna bet?

Right. I was imprecise in my language. I meant you couldn't carry or hold the ball. Tapping or batting the ball doesn't necessarily stop a dribble.

BTW, I'm curious about the answers to the section question. The NFHS rule book says that if a ball is batted into the air during a dribble, it must hit the hit the floor before being touched again. However, if a dribbler presses the ball toward the floor, releases that hand, then touches with the other hand before it hits the floor, is that illegal? If the dribbler bats the ball sideways, then presses with the other hand toward the floor? If the dribbler bats the ball at a 45 degree angle downward toward the floor and his other hand, then dribbles with the other hand before it hits the floor? In none of these cases, did he ever touch with two hands simultaneously. But what gets me is does "batted into the air" imply that the ball gets batted upward?

I ask because this came up in a game recently.

JT

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jefftuck

The NFHS rule book says that if a ball is batted into the air during a dribble, it must hit the hit the floor before being touched again. However, if a dribbler presses the ball toward the floor, releases that hand, then touches with the other hand before it hits the floor, is that illegal? If the dribbler bats the ball sideways, then presses with the other hand toward the floor? If the dribbler bats the ball at a 45 degree angle downward toward the floor and his other hand, then dribbles with the other hand before it hits the floor? In none of these cases, did he ever touch with two hands simultaneously. But what gets me is does "batted into the air" imply that the ball gets batted upward?

Jeff, the easiest way to figure all of these out is just to get into the definitions in the rules.

By definition, a dribble starts when the ball is batted or pushed to the floor(R4-15-1). Anything that happens after that is during a dribble, and the applicable rules are valid until the dribble has ended. The rule that you're now referring to--rule 4-15-2- is a little hazy because of the "bat" terminology that is used. If it's not 100% clear, that's when you get out the ol' case book to see if that'll help. Voila!. Casebook play 4.15.4SitDCOMMENT gives you your answer when it states definitively that it's a violation to touch the ball twice during a dribble before the ball touches the floor again. That should answer all of your questions above.

Sound OK?

[jefftuck]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Jeff, the easiest way to figure all of these out is just to get into the definitions in the rules.

By definition, a dribble starts when the ball is batted or pushed to the floor(R4-15-1). Anything that happens after that is during a dribble, and the applicable rules are valid until the dribble has ended. The rule that you're now referring to--rule 4-15-2- is a little hazy because of the "bat" terminology that is used. If it's not 100% clear, that's when you get out the ol' case book to see if that'll help. Voila!. Casebook play 4.15.4SitDCOMMENT gives you your answer when it states definitively that it's a violation to touch the ball twice during a dribble before the ball touches the floor again. That should answer all of your questions above.

Sound OK?

Yes, but that case specifically says that the ball is batted up into the air over an opponent. Then, in the discussion of the case, it says that it is illegal to touch the ball twice. Now, can you look at the answer or discussion and completely ignore the case that it was answering. Clearly, if the ball is batted up over an opponent, it is illegal to touch it again before it hits the floor. I'm not sure you can take the answer to this case and say that regardless of what the original question is, this answer says you can never touch it twice before it hits the floor (during a dribble).

JT

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jefftuck

Yes, but that case specifically says that the ball is batted up into the air over an opponent. Then, in the discussion of the case, it says that it is illegal to touch the ball twice. Now, can you look at the answer or discussion and completely ignore the case that it was answering. Clearly, if the ball is batted up over an opponent, it is illegal to touch it again before it hits the floor. I'm not sure you can take the answer to this case and say that regardless of what the original question is, this answer says you can never touch it twice before it hits the floor (during a dribble).

Well, I tried.....

My advice is to take it to your association/state interpreter. Maybe you'll believe them.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Well, I tried.....

My advice is to take it to your association/state interpreter. Maybe you'll believe them.

You should stick to being the in your face take no hostages evil prick. It suits you better.

More entertaining too.

[mick]

Originally Posted by jefftuck

Right. I was imprecise in my language. I meant you couldn't carry or hold the ball. Tapping or batting the ball doesn't necessarily stop a dribble.

BTW, I'm curious about the answers to the section question. The NFHS rule book says that if a ball is batted into the air during a dribble, it must hit the hit the floor before being touched again.

• However, if a dribbler presses the ball toward the floor, releases that hand, then touches with the other hand before it hits the floor, is that illegal?
• If the dribbler bats the ball sideways, then presses with the other hand toward the floor?
• If the dribbler bats the ball at a 45 degree angle downward toward the floor and his other hand, then dribbles with the other hand before it hits the floor?

In none of these cases, did he ever touch with two hands simultaneously. But what gets me is does "batted into the air" imply that the ball gets batted upward?

I ask because this came up in a game recently.

JT

JT,
After the start of a dribble, these acts are illegal.
But to start a dribble, pending restricted foot movement, these acts are probably legal.