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Old Tue Feb 26, 2008, 02:52pm
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Going OOB=T?-FIBA

Since a discussion about this started here I thought we could continue it in this thread insted of hijacking the other one.
I have heard that leaving the playing court to avoid a defensive player in FIBA is a warning or a T, but I have never seen this rule in the book. Nor have I ever had it mentioned to me during any referee training, so, is this a rule? If so what is the penalty for it, or should we call this at all?
I personally only have one instance in wich I was really close to warning a player, that was when he run outside the baseline to avoid a defender in the key, I didn't though becuse I felt I couldn't support it. I don't like to call this and then explain for the coach that "no it's not in the book but I've heard it is in the case book in a case I havn't seen".
Well I didn't call it...
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 03:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
Since a discussion about this started here I thought we could continue it in this thread insted of hijacking the other one.
I have heard that leaving the playing court to avoid a defensive player in FIBA is a warning or a T, but I have never seen this rule in the book. Nor have I ever had it mentioned to me during any referee training, so, is this a rule? If so what is the penalty for it, or should we call this at all?
I personally only have one instance in wich I was really close to warning a player, that was when he run outside the baseline to avoid a defender in the key, I didn't though becuse I felt I couldn't support it. I don't like to call this and then explain for the coach that "no it's not in the book but I've heard it is in the case book in a case I havn't seen".
Well I didn't call it...
There used to be this rule. But apparently they forgot to carry it over during some rule revision.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 08:25am
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IMO, I am in agreement with you Crazy. It is not an actual rule but is mentioned in the casebook. The casebook as you put in the other post refers to a technical for not following an officials directions. Which in the situation happened to be after a warning for going out of bounds to gain an advantage.

As far as I have been told by our interpreter here in Manitoba, if the player does this and gains an advantage that enables them to score, then you would have to make stop the play. Wipe the basket and issue the warning and/or Tech.

I have not even come close to this happening as yet, but it is our first full season under FIBA rules.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 09:06am
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I have called what is it now, almost 4 seasons (that's how long I've been a ref) and I've only once been close to call this. Once

@eg-italy Do you know when it disappered? And it seams weird they would just miss it, you sure it wasn't removed? But then why would it, I really like the rule (case what-ever it is)-
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 11:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy voyager
Since a discussion about this started here I thought we could continue it in this thread insted of hijacking the other one.
I have heard that leaving the playing court to avoid a defensive player in FIBA is a warning or a T, but I have never seen this rule in the book. Nor have I ever had it mentioned to me during any referee training, so, is this a rule? If so what is the penalty for it, or should we call this at all?
I personally only have one instance in wich I was really close to warning a player, that was when he run outside the baseline to avoid a defender in the key, I didn't though becuse I felt I couldn't support it. I don't like to call this and then explain for the coach that "no it's not in the book but I've heard it is in the case book in a case I havn't seen".
Well I didn't call it...
here's some support from fiba rules:

4.2.2 Five (5) players from each team shall be on the playing court during playing time and may be substituted.

23.1.1 A player is out-of-bounds when any part of his body is in contact with the floor or any object other than a player, on, above or outside the boundary line.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 12:28pm
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Here's the problem.

The act of going out-of-bounds specifically to avoid a defensive player in itself is not covered in the rules.

However, with rule 4.2.2 as our background, we can warn players not to leave the court, and if they don't listen...

38.3.1 A technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioural nature including, but not limited to:

- Disregarding warnings by officials.

Which means I was wrong to make that call, as I did twice in a game earlier this year :S
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 12:41pm
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So you can warn them not to do something that isn't explicitly prohibited? And if they don't follow that, you can T them up?

So, to expand on this: If you're getting tired of rough play on free throws, could you just warn the players to keep their hands to themselves? If they don't comply, can you give them a T?
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 02:26pm
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For me, I even have a problem justifying the warning. It's as if there is something missing/been removed in the rules and they missed removing the casebook play.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells
If you're getting tired of rough play on free throws, could you just warn the players to keep their hands to themselves? If they don't comply, can you give them a T?
What do YOU think?
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:24pm
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Originally Posted by The Canuck
What do YOU think?
Without rules support, I think both cases are being overly officious.

I suppose the difference is you still have a case play to support the one; even if the rule is non-existent.
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:27pm
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But there are rules about rough play on free throws... personal fouls!
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:43pm
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Originally Posted by The Canuck
But there are rules about rough play on free throws... personal fouls!
Yup, but there's no rule that requires the players to keep their hands within the various planes around their lane spaces; yet I've seen officials warn the players to stay "straight up" or "within your lanes."
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:46pm
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Originally Posted by crazy voyager
@eg-italy Do you know when it disappered? And it seams weird they would just miss it, you sure it wasn't removed? But then why would it, I really like the rule (case what-ever it is)-
I don't remember precisely and I don't have the old rule books at hand. IIRC, it was added not at the technical foul section, but somewhere else; I guess it disappeared during the first major revision of the rule book, some years ago.

I filed a question to Fred Horgan, let's wait for some official answer.

@canuckref: using 4.2.2 for this seems to be stretching somewhat the sense of the words, IMO

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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 04:55pm
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As a offical who works games played under FIBA rules this is how I'd haddle this...

While there is no specific rule that I have found about leaving the court for an un-authorized reason; the game of basketball is meant to be played within the boundary lines. A player the continues to play outside of the spirit of the game needs to be dealt with. Enforcement of this could fall under Rule 8, Art 46, Sec 13 which states "The referee has the power to make decisions on any point not specifically covered by the rules"

If you as an official believe that a player leaving the floor gains an unfair advantage, it is your responsibility to deal with it. I'd warn first because it's the fair thing to do and if it happens again I'd assess a technical foul under rule
38.3.1 "a technical foul is a player non-contact foul of a behavioural nature including, but not limited to:

-Disregarding warnings by the officials.
- etc...

My 2 cents...
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Old Wed Feb 27, 2008, 10:01pm
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I agree that a player intentionally leaving the boundaries of the court in order to gain an advantage could be a technical foul. I have called such a situation only once (in 20 years of refereeing), when a player ran around the outside of the court to avoid a defensive player.

However looking at the 2006 FIBA rules, I can't find anything that specifically mentions it. The best I could come up with was:

38.1.2 Each team shall do its best to secure victory, but this must be done in the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play.

This seems to me to be a provision that makes "cheating" a technical foul, even if there isn't a specific mention of it elsewhere in the rules.

Oh, as an aisde, a few people made mention that this is mentioned "in the casebook", there is NO casebook for FIBA, so I assume you are talking NFHS/NCAA?

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