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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 09:43pm
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Question Tell the coach or not?

I was waiting for the game to finish before my first one today and the following happened. Team A up by three with four seconds to go. They will inbound on their own end line. There is a timeout. During the timeout, Coach B goes over to one of the officials and apparently asks something. I can see the official nod. The timeout ends and B1 reaches across the boundary and fouls A1 on the inbound play while A1 is still holding the ball. The official (the same one) calls the intentional foul. Coach B throws his hands up and looks perplexed. They administer the foul (player makes both) and give the ball back to team A for the throw in. They throw it way down court where it is batted around until the horn sounds.

It just so happened that the official involved was my partner for the next game so I asked him what the coach wanted to know. He said the coach asked him that if they fouled the inbounder before he released the ball, would the foul occur without the clock starting. The official said he responded by telling the coach that's what would happen. He then told me he considered also telling the coach that it would be an intentional foul and that team A would get 2 shots and the ball back, so there wouldn't be any advantage he would gain by doing that, but that he felt it wasn't his responsibility to inform the coach of that since he didn't ask.

This game involved competitive middle school teams in a tourney.

What do you guys think? Would you have told the coach about the foul being intentional or just limit your response to what he asked?
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Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 09:49pm
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I would have told him the consequences too.....

Of course, I've been chastised on this board before as I also have told Rec and younger coaches when they are out of time outs and to watch the intentional fouls at the end of the game......
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Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 10:01pm
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I suppose if I thought of it at the time. May have been so focused on the coach’s question that I wouldn’t be thinking IF. But when it happens then I’d call it because it would be obvious. I suppose it is not our job to alert them of expected violations or fouls, but I would respect the coach for asking in advance and getting an opinion. My reaction might be to give the coach a heads up, if I exercise some foresight. Meanwhile, IMO you did the right thing. No guilt trip here.
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Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 10:10pm
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Bottom line is that it's the coach's responsibility to know the rules. That said, it's up to the official if they want to advise the coach of the potential consequences, but certainly is not required.

Assuming they were in the bonus, what I don't understand is why they fouled the inbounder - really dumb strategy IMHO! It would have made more sense to foul one of the other players in a manner that would not draw an intentional call.
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Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 10:21pm
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I would have hanlded it exactly the same as the official on the game did. It is the coach's responsibility to know the rules associated with the game and his selected strategy. This is an example of a coach thinking that he has come up with a clever way to prevent the clock from starting and is going to benefit from fouling. How silly of this coach to not realize that he obviously isn't the first to have this thought and that those who write the rules make them such that this kind of strategy doesn't pay. This coach got exactly what he deserved--a harsh lesson.
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Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 10:22pm
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You tell him.

To not do so and then call the IF makes it look like you baited them into it...yes I am aware that there is no excuse for ignorance, but we use preventive officiating all game long, this is no different.
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Old Sun Feb 17, 2008, 10:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
I was waiting for the game to finish before my first one today and the following happened. Team A up by three with four seconds to go. They will inbound on their own end line. There is a timeout. During the timeout, Coach B goes over to one of the officials and apparently asks something. I can see the official nod. The timeout ends and B1 reaches across the boundary and fouls A1 on the inbound play while A1 is still holding the ball. The official (the same one) calls the intentional foul. Coach B throws his hands up and looks perplexed. They administer the foul (player makes both) and give the ball back to team A for the throw in. They throw it way down court where it is batted around until the horn sounds.

It just so happened that the official involved was my partner for the next game so I asked him what the coach wanted to know. He said the coach asked him that if they fouled the inbounder before he released the ball, would the foul occur without the clock starting. The official said he responded by telling the coach that's what would happen. He then told me he considered also telling the coach that it would be an intentional foul and that team A would get 2 shots and the ball back, so there wouldn't be any advantage he would gain by doing that, but that he felt it wasn't his responsibility to inform the coach of that since he didn't ask.

This game involved competitive middle school teams in a tourney.

What do you guys think? Would you have told the coach about the foul being intentional or just limit your response to what he asked?
I might respond to the coach, "you should ask me what type of foul must be called if that strategy is employed."
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 12:06am
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For what it's worth, I was sitting on the 2nd row of a game a couple of weeks ago that Ted Valentine was working. The defense was pressing, and the offense was just about to get called for a 10 second violation. The offense called timeout with 27 showing on the shot clock. Following the timeout, Ted was administering the throw in on the sideline. As he was handing the ball to the inbounder, I heard him say something that I couldn't make out followed by, "And you get a new 10 seconds too!"
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 10:12am
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In a game I did several years ago, the situation was that Team A was down 2 points with about 20 seconds left. Team B had the ball for a throw-in. As Team A was coming out of the time out, A1 said to me to watch him during the throwin, because he was going to foul B1 (their worst free throw shooter) during the throwin. My response to him was "It sounds intentional to me." A1 opted not to foul B1 at that point. I see no problem in sharing that information the team.

If you tell me you are going to foul someone in a situation like that, that is intentional in my book. If you don't tell me, then I have to judge is the play was a basketball play or a purposeful foul.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 10:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref in PA
In a game I did several years ago, the situation was that Team A was down 2 points with about 20 seconds left. Team B had the ball for a throw-in. As Team A was coming out of the time out, A1 said to me to watch him during the throwin, because he was going to foul B1 (their worst free throw shooter) during the throwin. My response to him was "It sounds intentional to me." A1 opted not to foul B1 at that point. I see no problem in sharing that information the team.

If you tell me you are going to foul someone in a situation like that, that is intentional in my book. If you don't tell me, then I have to judge is the play was a basketball play or a purposeful foul.
I agree.

I had the same case as you a number of years ago. I didn't call the INT. If I ever have it again, I would definitely ask (and suggest!) if the player is going to make a play on the ball.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 10:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar
I would have told him the consequences too.....

Of course, I've been chastised on this board before as I also have told Rec and younger coaches when they are out of time outs and to watch the intentional fouls at the end of the game......
Someone on this forum said it is not our responsibility to inform a coach when his/her team is out of time-outs?
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 10:48am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
What do you guys think? Would you have told the coach about the foul being intentional or just limit your response to what he asked?
I think a complete answer is appropriate, although with such an off-the-wall question the "complete answer" may not immediately come to mind.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 10:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadNewsRef
Someone on this forum said it is not our responsibility to inform a coach when his/her team is out of time-outs?
Coaching box warnings are not our responsibility either. But, hey, why not?
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 11:26am
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Preventative Officiating

Why not tell the coach where there are with Timeouts? Why not warn him that the clock won't start, but it is an intentional foul?

We are taught to use preventative officiating from the earliest lessons. If I'm aware that an infraction is about to happen, and it can be prevented, I do something about it. Obviously I can't stop a player from fouling, and I can't stop the player from stepping out of bounds. But I can remind players in the lane to keep moving, and I can remind players to keep their hands off, and I can remind players to wait for the ball to hit before entering the lane on a rebound attempt. Why not do it?

The only thing I keep in mind is that I warn both coaches when they are low or out of timeouts. I don't play favorites. Both teams are entitled to the information if I've got it.
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Old Mon Feb 18, 2008, 11:30am
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Why wouldn't he just have a player hold one of the cutters trying to get open for the inbounds pass?

I would say something to him. I look for the clean end of the stick when working and not saying anything guarantees me getting the poopy end.
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