Nova vs Georgetown

[hbioteach]

Good foul call. My 1st reaction was bad call. Defender contact forced player out of bounds. No choice but to call the foul.

Anyone see the NOVA layup with about 10 seconds left in the half. Picks up dribble, takes 3 steps, No call?

[Reffing Rev.]

Didn't see it, just read about it...

Can picture it...

Got to call the foul, Big Brother is always watching and Big Brother might say no foul call is okay, but Big Brother gets a good look in high definition at the line...Takes guts, the kind of guts that gets you on that floor that night.

I can say I've been forced into certain calls by player's actions and I really "hate" to make that call because it does "decide" the game, but the player's actions dictated it.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Didn't see it, just read about it...

Can picture it...

Got to call the foul, Big Brother is always watching and Big Brother might say no foul call is okay, but Big Brother gets a good look in high definition at the line...Takes guts, the kind of guts that gets you on that floor that night.

I can say I've been forced into certain calls by player's actions and I really "hate" to make that call because it does "decide" the game, but the player's actions dictated it.

Well said!!! Its funny how we as officials are being critical, @ times, of officials who have to make a call @ the end of the game. The official didn't cause the contact. The player should've realized where they were @ in the game and make sure not to foul.

You can't ignore contact that causes a loss of possession. Its a foul, the official didn't cause the foul. His whistle is a result of the Nova's player's stupidity!!! The player goofed not the official.

If Jay Bilas is such a expert on what, when, & how to call the game then he should put on the stripes, strap on a whistle, & blow!!! That guy is a horses Azz. Its to easy for him to pin the mistake on the official and not the player.

The same holds true for the Rutgers/Tennessee game. Were busy trying to prove that the officials "ROBBED" Rutgers when it was the Rutgers player who put the officials in the position to have to make the call in the first place.

[TheViper]

Bad Call, regardless of situation. Not that technically this wasn't a foul, because by definition, it definitely was a foul. The way this game was called throughout merits a no call in this situation. People were killing each other the whole game, and it was getting let go. Hell, they weren't even calling kicks in this game. But if that official really thought that was a foul, then Georgetown committed murder on Scottie Reynolds right before he turned it over with 5.whatever left.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by TheViper

Bad Call, regardless of situation. Not that technically this wasn't a foul, because by definition, it definitely was a foul. The way this game was called throughout merits a no call in this situation. People were killing each other the whole game, and it was getting let go. Hell, they weren't even calling kicks in this game. But if that official really thought that was a foul, then Georgetown committed murder on Scottie Reynolds right before he turned it over with 5.whatever left.

I heard this morning that they called 40 fouls in that game. So they were hardly letting everything pass.

And if you watch Reynolds drive to the basket, he actually got away with a HUGE push off when he started his drive. The contact after that on the drive to the hoop was not nearly as severe as I originally thought...

Explain, Viper, how you justify giving the ball back to Nova on the OB call you'd have to make if you didn't call the foul.

[PADist1Ref]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I heard this morning that they called 40 fouls in that game. So they were hardly letting everything pass.

And if you watch Reynolds drive to the basket, he actually got away with a HUGE push off when he started his drive. The contact after that on the drive to the hoop was not nearly as severe as I originally thought...

Explain, Viper, how you justify giving the ball back to Nova on the OB call you'd have to make if you didn't call the foul.

This is exactly the crux of the matter. If the contact causes a violation or OOB, you have no choice but to call it. If he gives the ball to Nova there (which he would have to if no foul), sure there's only .1 on the clock and we're going to overtime right? Unless of course they throw the perfect lob pass on the inbounds (which is in the FC by the way) and get the winning tap. Or unless there is a foul on the winning tap attempt. Or unless there is a hold on a player trying to get free for the pass. Or unless there is a foul for pushing through a screen. ANYTHING can happen once they give the ball to Nova there. You simply can't do it, regardless of the time.

[jcarter]

Real simple, the official had two choices.

1. Call the foul
2. Call out of bounds

no way you can let both of those go. He did the rite thing!

[jeffpea]

this play put Bob Donato in a tough situation...looked like he wanted to pass on call, but had to put air in the whistle when the Hoya player was headed out of bounds.....

IMHO, the Precision Timing System is a MAJOR factor in this play that has been overlooked. Because PTS causes the clock to stop the instant a whistle is blown, the clock stopped w/ 0:00.1. If there were no PTS, then the horn would have sounded and the officials could have waved off the foul (saying it occored at/after the buzzer) and gone to OT....just a little "food for thought".

[pizanno]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If Jay Bilas is such a expert on what, when, & how to call the game then he should put on the stripes, strap on a whistle, & blow!!! That guy is a horses Azz. Its to easy for him to pin the mistake on the official and not the player.

At the risk of being a Bilas apologist, I think out of all the analysts and columnists, he has always exhibited the most understanding of officials and our craft, even defending them at times against the consipracy theorists (read: whiners). What I like about him is he gives me (as an official) a coach's and player's perspective having been there himself, and he doesn't scapegoat.

His point is often that officials (and questionable calls) are part of the game and always have been. In this technological age of triple slo-mo reverse angle replay, mistakes are more public and the media (youtube, too) further perpetuates the public's low tolerance for less than perfect officiating. Coaches and players who blame refs on last second calls or no-calls need to get over it and look at how their teams performance in the previous 39 minutes of play determined the outcome. (still trying to find that article he wrote on ESPN.com a few years ago)

What I heard him say in the post-game is consistent with what my supervisors and other veteran officials in my area would say. Game awareness of the score (tied) and situation (75 feet from hoop) is tantamount and this is a perfect example of why.

Bilas says that for a veteran crew, they should know better, and I agree.

Rafferty said (paraphrasing) "a foul at the beginning of the game should be a foul at the end of the game, right?"

Bilas: "not for the good officials".

Color guy: "looks like because he stepped OOB he felt he needed to make the call"

Bilas: "you can rationalize it however you want, but for the game to have been decided that way is unfortunate."

This is what I took away from it....and what I will apply to my game. The debate of whether this is a foul or not (or OOB or not) in the context of this single play is missing the big picture.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pizanno

What I heard him say in the post-game is consistent with what my supervisors and other veteran officials in my area would say.

Color guy: "looks like because he stepped OOB he felt he needed to make the call"

Bilas: "you can rationalize it however you want, but for the game to have been decided that way is unfortunate."

If your supervisors and other veteran officials in your area think that an OOB call can be ignored at ANY time during a game, then your supervisors and veteran officials need to give up officiating and take up broadcasting. OOB calls MUST be called at at ALL times.

Our avocation doesn't need supervisors and veteran officials like yours imo.

Big Picture? Not freaking likely!

Terrible, terrible advice.

[pizanno]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If your supervisors and other veteran officials in your area think that an OOB call can be ignored at ANY time during a game, then your supervisors and veteran officials need to give up officiating and take up broadcasting. OOB calls MUST be called at at ALL times.

Our avocation doesn't need supervisors and veteran officials like yours imo.

Big Picture? Not freaking likely!

Terrible, terrible advice.

See..this is what I love about this board. In your area, JR ("hell" according to your profile), there are no grey areas, and thus no reason to debate the call (or non-call).

In my neck of the woods, it's very different. And not because of my two cents. Because it's the commissioners that oversee the schools, then hire my supervisors, who then hire(d) our vets, who retain them and reward them with schedules and playoff assignments (with coaches input) who create and perpetute the culture and philosophy of having "common sense" in tough situations.

The context that this discussion is rooted in is 0.1 seconds and a tie game!!! If you don't see that as relevant info, then read no further.

I can appreciate about OOB not being a judgement call. But if you saw the play, it wasn't even obvious that the player stepped on the line. Even when they froze the replay and zoomed in, it wasn't clear. That's why i used the term EDGED.

I'm not a D1 men's official, but I know enough of them to know that at that level, they "apply" the rules and philosophies very differently than I do. Yes, I realize that sometimes the rest of us commoners become collateral damage because of it, but it's mostly outcry from ignorant fans or bystanders.

I'm not here to give advice, just share my perspective. There's enough opinions for everyone to take what works for them.

Until the day when you take Hank Nichols' job JR, my supervisors and colleagues will still have a job while you may continue to criticize us on how we don't deserve to wear the stripes.

Like someone else's tag says "it is what it is".

[jdw3018]

I would only say, pizanno, that the official had a better view of the boundary than any replay did, and that the official also couldn't have known there'd be 0.1 on the clock. He probably knew they were getting down to the last second or so, but there was too much action and too much scrambling in that last 4-6 seconds to know for sure.

Would it have "felt" different if there were 1.1 left instead? I say it would have to most observers.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pizanno

Until the day when you take Hank Nichols' job JR, my supervisors and colleagues will still have a job while you may continue to criticize us on how we don't deserve to wear the stripes.

The point is that you're agreeing with Bilas that OOB calls should be ignored under certain circumstances. I commented on what you stated---> "The debate of whether this is a foul or not (OR OOB OR NOT) in the context of this single play is missing the big picture." Well, imo the biggest part of the "big picture" is whether the player actually stepped OOB or not. If he did, then something MUST be called imo, whether it's an OOB violation or a foul for pushing the player OOB. If the player didn't go OOB, then we all can argue all day whether a foul should or should not have been called and it's all moot anyway.

The funny thing though is that I haven't seen Hank Nichols, your supervisors or any of your veteran colleagues come on here and agree with your opinion. The oldest trick in the world is to say I'm right because all if these experts agree with me, without providing any proof that any of those experts actually do agree with you. Personally, I doubt very much that you could ever get Hank Nichols or any D1 supervisor to state that an OOB call could ever be a judgment call under any circumstances. That's my opinion. And until I actually see Hank Nichols, D1 supervisors and veteran D1 officials tell me that I'm wrong, I'm going to stick to my opinion.

We disagree.

[HawkeyeCubP]

Originally Posted by pizanno

See..this is what I love about this board. In your area, JR ("hell" according to your profile), there are no grey areas, and thus no reason to debate the call (or non-call).

In every place I've ever worked, "grey areas" don't apply to out of bounds plays or situations, in any of the three sports I work, at any of the levels I work at. I'm going to go ahead and sit on my hands here at my desk and not move until any supervisor or assignor (with any credibility) says that an OB violation should simply be ignored in that, or any situation. I'll see you all in the morning. I'll just be here, sitting on my hands - because that will never happen.

If there are officials who don't agree with how this call was made, it's fine, in theory, (despite they're making everyone else's jobs harder) because those officials aren't ever going to work at that level (what JRut said about the video updates on ESO is dead-on - and you could probably find at least one from about every year in the archives on both the men's and women's side that addresses these types of plays, and how they want them called fouls) - or if they do, and blow this call, they'll be done working at that level (or at least in that conference).

Poor defense. Good call. Rant off.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by pizanno

In my neck of the woods, it's very different. And not because of my two cents. Because it's the commissioners that oversee the schools, then hire my supervisors, who then hire(d) our vets, who retain them and reward them with schedules and playoff assignments (with coaches input) who create and perpetute the culture and philosophy of having "common sense" in tough situations.

I'm not a D1 men's official, but I know enough of them to know that at that level, they "apply" the rules and philosophies very differently than I do.

Until the day when you take Hank Nichols' job JR, my supervisors and colleagues will still have a job while you may continue to criticize us on how we don't deserve to wear the stripes.

I think that your supervisors and colleagues are very lucky that Hank Nichols isn't their boss.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...nova_call.html

It is what it is.