"And 1's"

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I regret far less than I used to.

I'm beginning to think the term "Patient whistle" is used like the word "Integrity", thrown around a lot but in reality few practice it.

I'll make you laugh--earlier this year I put the fist up to call an offensive foul from the C, realized I probably antiicpated it, and then passed on the crash by not hitting the whistle and putitng my fist down quickly. Had a good chuckle with the coach who asked me why I didn't call the charge and I confessed how I locked up; the only guy in the gym who knew what I did had to be him, right?

Patient whistle is exceptionally difficult. Probably the longest 0.25 second difference in the world, but you cannot be late on off-ball or big stuff. Combine that with the regular errors we make, while always practicing the patient whistle is impossible, the more often you can do it, the better off you are.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Minor contact on the shooter that does not alter the shot or give an advantage is not a foul. Therefore there is nothing to protect the shooter from.

So if an airborne shooter goes up and releases and the defender is underneath him and the shooter lands on him and rolls his ankle, you got nothing since it didn't affect his shot?

I believe there are some plays where you have to blow regardless of advantage/disadvantage.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So if an airborne shooter goes up and releases and the defender is underneath him and the shooter lands on him and rolls his ankle, you got nothing since it didn't affect his shot?

I believe there are some plays where you have to blow regardless of advantage/disadvantage.

First of all, there's that freaking big OR in there. If there's an advantage gained, even if the shot isn't altered it's still a foul. If the defender slides under the airborne shooter and causes the shooter to land on him, that's an advantage.

Second of all, just because a player rolls an ankle does not justify a foul. At all. Ever. Fuggedaboutit. If the contact that led to the rolled ankle is a foul, call the foul. If the contact is incidental, you should not call anything. Basketball is an inherently risky sport. Just because a player is injured does not automatically mean that somebody has to "pay."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Two questions should be answered in this decision. Did the offensive player win the matchup on the scoring play against the defense? If so, did the offensive player get affected by the contact such that he had to alter his shot? If the answer to both is yes, ring it up. If the answer to the second question is no, you can wait to ring it up. That allows you to pass if the ball goes straight through, because the contact may not have been as severe as you thought. Conversely, you may have thought there was minimal contact with the look you had, yet if the shot is clearly affected, you can call the late foul and reward him for beating the defense.

And the contact may have completely altered the shot and the shooter made a good play to get it off anyway and score. And you(and others) now want to penalize the shooter by ignoring the foul.

Too much thinking. Just call the damn game.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I regret far less than I used to.

I'm beginning to think the term "Patient whistle" is used like the word "Integrity", thrown around a lot but in reality few practice it.

I don't know whether it's a matter of practicing it or not understanding it. A foul is a foul. If there is enough contact made to normally call a foul on the play, then just call it.

I really think that quite a few officials have the wrong impression that you have to have a patient whistle on all contact. They end up penalizing a shooter by not calling a foul when he has made a good play getting the ball off and making a shot after the defensive contact that forced him to make that good play.

Soooooo, just call the fouls.....and don't regret 'em.

[grunewar]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Did the offensive player win the matchup on the scoring play against the defense? If so, did the offensive player get affected by the contact such that he had to alter his shot? If the answer to both is yes, ring it up. If the answer to the second question is no, you can wait to ring it up. That allows you to pass if the ball goes straight through, because the contact may not have been as severe as you thought. Conversely, you may have thought there was minimal contact with the look you had, yet if the shot is clearly affected, you can call the late foul and reward him for beating the defense.

I watches em and callsem to the best of my ability.

I think if I tried applying this process I'd be staring at empty space as the play was heading back down to the other end of the court as I asked myself, hmmmm......JMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by grunewar

I watches em and calls em to the best of my ability.

Then there's no need to ever regrets 'em.

[truerookie]

I agree just call the game. I have been in and seen situations where contact is ignored because of the A/D concept which in turn cause the player(s) to become more aggressive. IMO, this is how some games turn into fights because of the aggressive play and the contact is not call appropriately. Due to A/D.

[Gimlet25id]

Was @ a camp a couple of years ago where the clinician happened to be a DI Supervisor when the following play happened.

I was "C" when A1 drives to the basket from me when after going airborne for a 6' er B2 tries to block the shot and causes a little body contact, not significant in any way, but enough to change the shot a bit. I waited to see if the shot was going to go, it went so I passed on the foul.

I was practically patting myself on the back thinking I just demonstrated a patient whistle in front of this Supervisor. Well I was wrong!!! The Supervisor came out on the ensuing T/O and asked, "If the player missed the shot would you have called the foul?" I said, "yes!, "I was waiting to see what impact the contact had on the shot." His reply was, "if its a foul if the player misses then its a foul if its made!"

He went on to say that we put way to much thought into whether we should call the foul or not. If its a foul then its a foul!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

The Supervisor came out on the ensuing T/O and asked, "If the player missed the shot would you have called the foul?" I said, "yes!, "I was waiting to see what impact the contact had on the shot." His reply was, "if its a foul if the player misses then its a foul if its made!"

He went on to say that we put way to much thought into whether we should call the foul or not. If its a foul then its a foul!!!

Amen!

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And the contact may have completely altered the shot and the shooter made a good play to get it off anyway and score. And you(and others) now want to penalize the shooter by ignoring the foul.

Too much thinking. Just call the damn game.

Where did you learn how to read? Home schooled, right? Read it again, figure out where you read it wrong. Too much thinking? The best can process data faster and get better results. Moore's Law. Read that, too.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I don't know whether it's a matter of practicing it or not understanding it. A foul is a foul. If there is enough contact made to normally call a foul on the play, then just call it.

I really think that quite a few officials have the wrong impression that you have to have a patient whistle on all contact. They end up penalizing a shooter by not calling a foul when he has made a good play getting the ball off and making a shot after the defensive contact that forced him to make that good play.

Soooooo, just call the fouls.....and don't regret 'em.

I'm with you on this JR.

I had a play the other night where A1 goes up for a layup and after he has started his upward shooting motion, B1 slides in (going to be a block if he fell) but at the last minute decides not to take the hit and attempts to bail away from the play, but in doing so he clips A1's leg causing him to become a little off balance. It was a developing play and in front of the L (I was at C in transition) so I gave him first crack at it and when he had no whistle I blew. The player missed the shot. Well when we got to the locker room, the Crew chief said it was a good patient whistle because I waited to see if it went in. I just agreed with him. I didn't call it for that reason at all. I called it because he got clipped and knocked off balance. My whistle was only "patient" because a) I was processing the play and b) giving the L a chance to blow. I'm not going to say there have been plays where I have waited to see if the shot was going in, but they are very few and very far between. If a player gets fouled, he gets fouled especially on jump shots. That is just too long of a time frame, imo, to wait to see if a shot goes in. You might employ this thought process right at the basket, but I don't believe you should on jump shots. JMO.

[JoeyCrawford]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Was @ a camp a couple of years ago where the clinician happened to be a DI Supervisor when the following play happened.

I was "C" when A1 drives to the basket from me when after going airborne for a 6' er B2 tries to block the shot and causes a little body contact, not significant in any way, but enough to change the shot a bit. I waited to see if the shot was going to go, it went so I passed on the foul.

I was practically patting myself on the back thinking I just demonstrated a patient whistle in front of this Supervisor. Well I was wrong!!! The Supervisor came out on the ensuing T/O and asked, "If the player missed the shot would you have called the foul?" I said, "yes!, "I was waiting to see what impact the contact had on the shot." His reply was, "if its a foul if the player misses then its a foul if its made!"

He went on to say that we put way to much thought into whether we should call the foul or not. If its a foul then its a foul!!!

Its sad to say this but you call the game how your supervisor wants it called or you wont get many games. You must adjust to how each supervisor wants it to be called.

Thats just how it is.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JoeyCrawford

Its sad to say this but you call the game how your supervisor wants it called or you wont get many games. You must adjust to how each supervisor wants it to be called.

Thats just how it is.

Old School is starting to produce offspring -- I count 2 so far -- Oracle and Joey...

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

I'll make you laugh--earlier this year I put the fist up to call an offensive foul from the C, realized I probably antiicpated it, and then passed on the crash by not hitting the whistle and putitng my fist down quickly. .

Still waiting.