Player ejected - adult supervision

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going lay this issue to rest once and for all, and my remarks are based upon hearing Dick Schindler, who was still the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor at the time that the rule was adopted, speak on it at an IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters Meeting.


If one reads the NFHS Rules Book, and I have read it, one will see that there are two types of adult bench personnel: (1) the Head Coach, and (2) all other adult bench personnel. One will also see that there are three types of non-adult bench personnel: (1) Substitutes, (2) disqualified players, and (3) all other non-adult bench personnel; and players are non-adults by default.

One will see that when the Head Coach receives the appropriate direct and indirect technical fouls or a single flagrant technical foul he is and I quote: “disqualified and ejected.” When all other adult bench personnel receives the appropriate direct and indirect technical fouls or a single flagrant technical foul they are ejected. Ejection means to “leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area.”

One will see that when a player becomes receives the appropriate number of personal and technical fouls are a single flagrant foul, he becomes disqualified and becomes bench personnel. When non-adult bench personal receive the appropriate number of personal and/or technical fouls or a single flagrant foul, they become disqualified and are already bench personnel. The Rules specifically want the disqualified non-adult bench personnel to remain on the team bench and remain under the supervision of an adult.

One will also see that ejection is a penalty that applies only to adult bench personnel. Ejection does not apply to non-adult bench personnel. Why does ejection not apply to players and non-adult bench personnel? Because, all disqualified non-adult bench personnel must remain under the supervision of an adult. PERIOD!! When a player or other non-adult is disqualified, the game officials are prohibited from ejecting him by rule. If the disqualified non-adult bench personnel meets the requirements of the NFHS Casebook Play that I have quoted in a previous post then the game officials can have the disqualified non-adult bench personnel removed from the team bench but only if they remain under the supervision of an adult. A Head Coach cannot remove a disqualified non-adult bench personnel to an area such as the locker room, unless that non-adult bench personnel is supervised by an adult, because the Rules require disqualified non-adult bench personnel to remain on the team bench unless the Casebook Play must be invoked.

MTD, Jr.

[jdw3018]

My last post on this subject: nothing in this post is any different than what you were saying in any other post. I completely understand that adult bench personnel are ejected and non-adult personnel cannot be ejected. We agree they may be removed under the specific requirements of the casebook play. I agree completely with everything you wrote in everything but the final paragraph.

I see nothing in the rules book differentiating what a coach may do (relative to sending bench personnel to the locker room, bus, hallway, wherever) with his bench personnel, disqualified or not. You've cited the same case play several times here, and I just don't agree that it applies to what a coach wants to do with his non-adult bench personnel. According to what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Because, all non-adult bench personnel, whether they are disqualified or not, must remain under the supervision of an adult. PERIOD!!

we're back to discussing what you called "apples and oranges" because now you're saying a player who needs saline solution from his bag may not run to the locker room without an adult escort.

I see nothing which requires me to monitor every movement of all bench personnel both inside and outside the confines of the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I see nothing which requires me to monitor every movement of all bench personnel both inside and outside the confines of the game.

Unless, the official, by rule, has ejected the player away from the bench area.

I do see Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s point, but I think his reasoning is a real stretch. If a coach, not the official, want to send his, or her player, to the locker room because they're sick, or need to replace a contact lens, or are giving the coach a hard time, I don't think that we can stop the coach from doing that, and under these conditions, I don't think that we should have to determine if there is an adult in the locker room.

I do give credit to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. for being so persistent, making me think that he might, I said, might, be right. I've never seen him so worked up about a Forum situation, and he's, very often, correct in his interpretations.

[Mark Dexter]

MTD, I'm going to have to join in the chorus of disagreement.

The intent of this rule is clear - to give the officials a way of removing a player from the bench. It is not there to prevent a coach from dismissing a player on his own accord.

[CJRef]

Ok, so either way if the player is continuing to cause a problem or if the coach wants him off the bench ( I had a game where one of the star players of the BV team was disqualified for swearing and the coach not only dismissed him from the bench but from the team ) how can we not "trust" the coach (it's a hard concept I know) but if we remind the coach of the rule and can articulate a reasonable belief of compliance, what more responsibility can we have? Are we supposed to obtain the identity of the supervision and have them sign a release and then periodically check on them? What if the DQ happens before half-time and when the team comes back the player is gone?

If you have a DQ you're more than likely required to write a report. I would document the series of events, circumstances and your conversation with the coach and reiterate that the rule was explained. As long as you have an agreement from the coach and the situation is well documented I would think that either the school or state would then be responsible for disciplining the coach in the event something happens to the player or because of the player's actions.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by CJRef

Ok, so either way if the player is continuing to cause a problem or if the coach wants him off the bench ( I had a game where one of the star players of the BV team was disqualified for swearing and the coach not only dismissed him from the bench but from the team ) how can we not "trust" the coach (it's a hard concept I know) but if we remind the coach of the rule and can articulate a reasonable belief of compliance, what more responsibility can we have? Are we supposed to obtain the identity of the supervision and have them sign a release and then periodically check on them? What if the DQ happens before half-time and when the team comes back the player is gone?

If you have a DQ you're more than likely required to write a report. I would document the series of events, circumstances and your conversation with the coach and reiterate that the rule was explained. As long as you have an agreement from the coach and the situation is well documented I would think that either the school or state would then be responsible for disciplining the coach in the event something happens to the player or because of the player's actions.

CJRef:

Read my Posts #40 and #45. Dick Schindler stated quite clearly how the rule was to be applied. Disqualified non-adult bench personnel must be under adult supervision at all times. They are not to be sent to the locker room without being supervised by an adult. It does not matter who wants him off the team bench, the disqualified non-adult bench personnel must be supervised by an adult. If the head coach wants the disqualified non-adult bench personnel off the team bench, the game officials must require the disqualified non-adult bench personnel to be supervised by an adult.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

MTD, I'm going to have to join in the chorus of disagreement.

The intent of this rule is clear - to give the officials a way of removing a player from the bench. It is not there to prevent a coach from dismissing a player on his own accord.

Mark:

Read my Posts #40 and #45. What I have written is nothing more than what Dick Schindler told rules interpreters. Dick's word is the final word.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Mark:

Read my Posts #40 and #45. What I have written is nothing more than what Dick Schindler told rules interpreters. Dick's word is the final word.

MTD, Sr.

What if a player picks up 5 personal fouls and fouls out? Let's say it's towards the end of the JV game and the coach wants the player to go back to the locker room to change into his/her varsity jersey. Would you still require that player to stay on the bench?

[CJRef]

Mark:
The casebook states the player must leave the vicinity of the court with an adult supervisor. If that happens or if we inform the coach of such and he assures us that the player is supervised, what else are we to do? You're making it sound as though we are responsible for ensuring that the player continues to be supervised. I'm documenting the situation and moving on.

I'm sure Bob Schindler appreicates your loyalty, but his word isn't exactly the "final" word. Next time I have an issue with a coach I'm going to tell him Bob Schindler said so and see how far I get.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

What if a player picks up 5 personal fouls and fouls out? Let's say it's towards the end of the JV game and the coach wants the player to go back to the locker room to change into his/her varsity jersey. Would you still require that player to stay on the bench?

Mark:

I am glad you brought this particular situation into the discussion. Daryl and I discussed last night, on our drive to our State Baseball and Softball Rules Meeting, similar situations with regard to the player "with" JV eligibility leaving the bench before the end of the JV game to get ready for the VAR game.

The NFHS Rules are written with the presumption that there is only one game being played. The Rules have no contingency for the situation that you described. My position throughout this thread has been based on the presumption that there is only one game being played with no game following it. The Rules also make no distinction between a non-adult bench personnel who has been disqualified because of five fouls as opposed to one who has been disqualified because of a single flagrant foul.

Every discussion in which I have taken part concerning the application of the rule has been in regard to a player that has been disqualified due to a single flagrant foul. The rule was adopted due to anecdotal evidence where players that were ejected by the game officials in one case destroyed a locker room and in another case the player did bodily harm to himself. The history of the adoption of the rule suggests that if a player who has fouled out late in the JV game, leaves the team bench to get ready for the VAR game is not the target of the rule, because logic would suggest that the player is joining his/her VAR teammates in the locker room who are already under the supervision of the Head Coach.

In the situation that you are describing would be best handled if all states adopted the MichiganHSAA rule that a player only plays in one game per day. Meaning if Teams A and B play a FR/JV/VAR tripleheader, a player can play in only one of the three games, not spread his/her five quarters over the three games like he/she can do under OhioHSAA rules.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

My last post on this subject: nothing in this post is any different than what you were saying in any other post. I completely understand that adult bench personnel are ejected and non-adult personnel cannot be ejected. We agree they may be removed under the specific requirements of the casebook play. I agree completely with everything you wrote in everything but the final paragraph.

I see nothing in the rules book differentiating what a coach may do (relative to sending bench personnel to the locker room, bus, hallway, wherever) with his bench personnel, disqualified or not. You've cited the same case play several times here, and I just don't agree that it applies to what a coach wants to do with his non-adult bench personnel. According to what you wrote:

we're back to discussing what you called "apples and oranges" because now you're saying a player who needs saline solution from his bag may not run to the locker room without an adult escort.

I see nothing which requires me to monitor every movement of all bench personnel both inside and outside the confines of the game.

I don't like making excuses for mistakes in my posts, both Daryl and I missed the Monday OhioHSAA State Rules Meetings for Baseball and Softball because we were both officiating basketball and I was trying to get my latest post posted Daryl picked me up to go to the OhioHSAA State Rules Meetings in Archbold, Ohio, therefore I did not proof read what I wrote.

BUT, if you go back to my post that you quoted you will see that I have now proof read it and edited it (see the red in bold italics) to what I wanted to say. Meaning, that I stand by what I wrote in the edited post.

Dick Schindler was still the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor when this rule was adopted and I heard him speak about the change and how it was to be applied. What I have told you is what Dick told us at and interpreters' meeting. What I said in the last paragraph of the post you are quoting is exactly how the Rules Committee wanted it to be applied. If you do not want to accept what I am saying I am sure you will accept the interpretation of the Rules Editor.

The rule does not require nor did it ever require a non-disqualified non-adult bench personnel to supervised by an adult when not on the bench. The rule is to be applied to disqualified non-adult bench personnel. And yes, by rule you are required to monitor disqualified non-adult bench personnel; you are required to make sure that they are under adult supervision at all times.

If you feel that you do want that responsibility that do not officiate basketball under NFHS Rules.

MTD, Sr.