Player ejected - adult supervision

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You are missing the point. The third quarter of the JV game ends with Team A having five players on the court and those are the only five remaining players that are eligible. You get ready to start the fourth quarter and Team A has only four players return to the court, and the reason is that the fifth player has not taken the court is because the VAR Coach wants her to save a quarter for the VAR game: TOO bad. NFHS Rules require Team A to put five players on the court because they have five eligible players remaining. Team A must have their fifth player return from the locker room and play in the fourth quarter of the JV game. If Team A refuses to start the fourth quarter for five players, then it loses the game by forfiet (dang I hope I spelled that word correctly). There is nothing really difficult about this rule. Just enforce it.

MTD, Sr.

We are talking about two different scenarios - in mine, a coach sends this JV/V player out while there are still 5 eligible players. After that, one of the 5 then fouls out. At that point, I allow them to continue playing with only 4.

In the scenario as you described, I agree with you.

[JoeTheRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You are missing the point. The third quarter of the JV game ends with Team A having five players on the court and those are the only five remaining players that are eligible. You get ready to start the fourth quarter and Team A has only four players return to the court, and the reason is that the fifth player has not taken the court is because the VAR Coach wants her to save a quarter for the VAR game: TOO bad. NFHS Rules require Team A to put five players on the court because they have five eligible players remaining. Team A must have their fifth player return from the locker room and play in the fourth quarter of the JV game. If Team A refuses to start the fourth quarter for five players, then it loses the game by forfiet (dang I hope I spelled that word correctly). There is nothing really difficult about this rule. Just enforce it.

MTD, Sr.

MTD, if the coach comes back and says the 5th player has taken ill what would "you" do then? If I'm a coach and I choose to play the 4th quarter with just 4 players, I may use this tactic.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

And I interpret the ruling about adult supervision only applies to a disqualified player who you, as an official, direct to leave the bench area. If his coach directs him to leave, this ruling doesn't apply.

If one reads NFHS R10-S5, Penalty Note 2, one will see that it specifically states that and I quote: "Ejected adult bench personnel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game."

No where in the NFHS Rules will anybody find a rule that states that a disqualified non-adult bench personel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game. The reason being that the NFHS wants disqualified non-adult bench personel to be under adult supervision at all times.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

We are talking about two different scenarios - in mine, a coach sends this JV/V player out while there are still 5 eligible players. After that, one of the 5 then fouls out. At that point, I allow them to continue playing with only 4.

In the scenario as you described, I agree with you.

Well of course I agree with you, I never was talking about a player fouling out, I have always been addressing the situation where the team does have five eligible players and does not want to play one of them.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JoeTheRef

MTD, if the coach comes back and says the 5th player has taken ill what would "you" do then? If I'm a coach and I choose to play the 4th quarter with just 4 players, I may use this tactic.

In your situation, we have to take the JV Coach's word. A player that is injured or sick is not considered an eligible player in your scenario, BUT if it was discovered later that the JV Coach lied about the player's condition just so she didn't have to play the fourth quarter I would that the powers to be would put the hammer down on the JV Coach and the VAR Coach for unethical behavior.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Of course schools will punish coaches for unethical and unsportsmanlike behavior when pigs fly.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

No where in the NFHS Rules will anybody find a rule that states that a disqualified non-adult bench personel shall leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area immediately and are prohibited from any further contact (direct or indirect) with the team during the remainder of the game.

And nowhere will you find a rule that states non-adult bench personnel shall only leave the bench with adult supervision except in a scenario where an official directs a disqualified member to do so.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

And nowhere will you find a rule that states non-adult bench personnel shall only leave the bench with adult supervision except in a scenario where an official directs a disqualified member to do so.

You are still missing the point. The rule is written to make sure that disqualified non-adult bench personnel are always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) under the supervision of adults. When they are sitting on the team beach they are under the supervision of an adult. In the Casebook Play, the official has the disqualified non-adult bench personnel leave the bench, but that disqualified non-adult bench personnel must be under the supervision of an adult. The rule is written in such a manner that the Head Coach cannot send disqualified non-adult bench personnel to the locker room without adult supervision. As I have stated before, quit comparing apples to oranges.

MTD, Sr.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You are still missing the point. The rule is written to make sure that disqualified non-adult bench personnel are always (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) under the supervision of adults. When they are sitting on the team beach they are under the supervision of an adult. In the Casebook Play, the official has the disqualified non-adult bench personnel leave the bench, but that disqualified non-adult bench personnel must be under the supervision of an adult. The rule is written in such a manner that the Head Coach cannot send disqualified non-adult bench personnel to the locker room without adult supervision. As I have stated before, quit comparing apples to oranges.

MTD, Sr.

Respectfully, I disagree. The rule is written in such a manner that the official can only direct the disqualified team member to leave except under the unusual circumstances cited with adult supervision.

If I have not directed the disqualified team member to leave, I have no more responsibility regarding his leaving the bench than any other non-adult member of the bench.

If I call a flagrant technical foul on a student manager for unsportsmanlike conduct, he/she stays on the bench. But if the coach then sends that student to the locker room, I'm not chasing him/her down to make certain there is adult supervision.

There are no apples or oranges here. Only differing interpretations of officials' jurisdiction and the application of this rule.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I am going lay this issue to rest once and for all, and my remarks are based upon hearing Dick Schindler, who was still the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor at the time that the rule was adopted, speak on it at an IAABO Fall Rules Interpreters Meeting.


If one reads the NFHS Rules Book, and I have read it, one will see that there are two types of adult bench personnel: (1) the Head Coach, and (2) all other adult bench personnel. One will also see that there are three types of non-adult bench personnel: (1) Substitutes, (2) disqualified players, and (3) all other non-adult bench personnel; and players are non-adults by default.

One will see that when the Head Coach receives the appropriate direct and indirect technical fouls or a single flagrant technical foul he is and I quote: “disqualified and ejected.” When all other adult bench personnel receives the appropriate direct and indirect technical fouls or a single flagrant technical foul they are ejected. Ejection means to “leave the vicinity (out of sight and sound) of the playing area.”

One will see that when a player becomes receives the appropriate number of personal and technical fouls are a single flagrant foul, he becomes disqualified and becomes bench personnel. When non-adult bench personal receive the appropriate number of personal and/or technical fouls or a single flagrant foul, they become disqualified and are already bench personnel. The Rules specifically want the disqualified non-adult bench personnel to remain on the team bench and remain under the supervision of an adult.

One will also see that ejection is a penalty that applies only to adult bench personnel. Ejection does not apply to non-adult bench personnel. Why does ejection not apply to players and non-adult bench personnel? Because, all disqualified non-adult bench personnel must remain under the supervision of an adult. PERIOD!! When a player or other non-adult is disqualified, the game officials are prohibited from ejecting him by rule. If the disqualified non-adult bench personnel meets the requirements of the NFHS Casebook Play that I have quoted in a previous post then the game officials can have the disqualified non-adult bench personnel removed from the team bench but only if they remain under the supervision of an adult. A Head Coach cannot remove a disqualified non-adult bench personnel to an area such as the locker room, unless that non-adult bench personnel is supervised by an adult, because the Rules require disqualified non-adult bench personnel to remain on the team bench unless the Casebook Play must be invoked.

MTD, Jr.

[jdw3018]

My last post on this subject: nothing in this post is any different than what you were saying in any other post. I completely understand that adult bench personnel are ejected and non-adult personnel cannot be ejected. We agree they may be removed under the specific requirements of the casebook play. I agree completely with everything you wrote in everything but the final paragraph.

I see nothing in the rules book differentiating what a coach may do (relative to sending bench personnel to the locker room, bus, hallway, wherever) with his bench personnel, disqualified or not. You've cited the same case play several times here, and I just don't agree that it applies to what a coach wants to do with his non-adult bench personnel. According to what you wrote:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Because, all non-adult bench personnel, whether they are disqualified or not, must remain under the supervision of an adult. PERIOD!!

we're back to discussing what you called "apples and oranges" because now you're saying a player who needs saline solution from his bag may not run to the locker room without an adult escort.

I see nothing which requires me to monitor every movement of all bench personnel both inside and outside the confines of the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I see nothing which requires me to monitor every movement of all bench personnel both inside and outside the confines of the game.

Unless, the official, by rule, has ejected the player away from the bench area.

I do see Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.'s point, but I think his reasoning is a real stretch. If a coach, not the official, want to send his, or her player, to the locker room because they're sick, or need to replace a contact lens, or are giving the coach a hard time, I don't think that we can stop the coach from doing that, and under these conditions, I don't think that we should have to determine if there is an adult in the locker room.

I do give credit to Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. for being so persistent, making me think that he might, I said, might, be right. I've never seen him so worked up about a Forum situation, and he's, very often, correct in his interpretations.

[Mark Dexter]

MTD, I'm going to have to join in the chorus of disagreement.

The intent of this rule is clear - to give the officials a way of removing a player from the bench. It is not there to prevent a coach from dismissing a player on his own accord.

[CJRef]

Ok, so either way if the player is continuing to cause a problem or if the coach wants him off the bench ( I had a game where one of the star players of the BV team was disqualified for swearing and the coach not only dismissed him from the bench but from the team ) how can we not "trust" the coach (it's a hard concept I know) but if we remind the coach of the rule and can articulate a reasonable belief of compliance, what more responsibility can we have? Are we supposed to obtain the identity of the supervision and have them sign a release and then periodically check on them? What if the DQ happens before half-time and when the team comes back the player is gone?

If you have a DQ you're more than likely required to write a report. I would document the series of events, circumstances and your conversation with the coach and reiterate that the rule was explained. As long as you have an agreement from the coach and the situation is well documented I would think that either the school or state would then be responsible for disciplining the coach in the event something happens to the player or because of the player's actions.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

My last post on this subject: nothing in this post is any different than what you were saying in any other post. I completely understand that adult bench personnel are ejected and non-adult personnel cannot be ejected. We agree they may be removed under the specific requirements of the casebook play. I agree completely with everything you wrote in everything but the final paragraph.

I see nothing in the rules book differentiating what a coach may do (relative to sending bench personnel to the locker room, bus, hallway, wherever) with his bench personnel, disqualified or not. You've cited the same case play several times here, and I just don't agree that it applies to what a coach wants to do with his non-adult bench personnel. According to what you wrote:

we're back to discussing what you called "apples and oranges" because now you're saying a player who needs saline solution from his bag may not run to the locker room without an adult escort.

I see nothing which requires me to monitor every movement of all bench personnel both inside and outside the confines of the game.

I don't like making excuses for mistakes in my posts, both Daryl and I missed the Monday OhioHSAA State Rules Meetings for Baseball and Softball because we were both officiating basketball and I was trying to get my latest post posted Daryl picked me up to go to the OhioHSAA State Rules Meetings in Archbold, Ohio, therefore I did not proof read what I wrote.

BUT, if you go back to my post that you quoted you will see that I have now proof read it and edited it (see the red in bold italics) to what I wanted to say. Meaning, that I stand by what I wrote in the edited post.

Dick Schindler was still the NFHS Basketball Rules Editor when this rule was adopted and I heard him speak about the change and how it was to be applied. What I have told you is what Dick told us at and interpreters' meeting. What I said in the last paragraph of the post you are quoting is exactly how the Rules Committee wanted it to be applied. If you do not want to accept what I am saying I am sure you will accept the interpretation of the Rules Editor.

The rule does not require nor did it ever require a non-disqualified non-adult bench personnel to supervised by an adult when not on the bench. The rule is to be applied to disqualified non-adult bench personnel. And yes, by rule you are required to monitor disqualified non-adult bench personnel; you are required to make sure that they are under adult supervision at all times.

If you feel that you do want that responsibility that do not officiate basketball under NFHS Rules.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

MTD, I'm going to have to join in the chorus of disagreement.

The intent of this rule is clear - to give the officials a way of removing a player from the bench. It is not there to prevent a coach from dismissing a player on his own accord.

Mark:

Read my Posts #40 and #45. What I have written is nothing more than what Dick Schindler told rules interpreters. Dick's word is the final word.

MTD, Sr.