Changing starters in Home book

[kmw]

Sat night, GV contest. Home scorer didn't mark correct starters in book. Mistake was caught during introductions. My partner and I had discussion at table and I thought that we should start game with T against home team and my partner felt that we should ask visiting team to just start the game with starters listed in book, which we didn't. Ultimately we corrected starters and went on with jump. I know that this isn't how we should have handled it and discussed it at our assoc meeting on Sunday. My partner felt that if visiting scorer wrote starters and roster in home book then we couldn't penalize home team with T. I thought that since home scorer is admitting that she copied them wrong then it should be a t against home team.

Both teams agreed to just change them and start and thats what we did. I would have liked to go with my gut instinct of T against home team.

With all that said- if home scorer writes starters wrong in book whats the penalty? b) what if visiting team writes roster and starter in home book and then there is a mistake?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by kmw

With all that said- if home scorer writes starters wrong in book whats the penalty? b) what if visiting team writes roster and starter in home book and then there is a mistake?

Just remember that the technical foul is for a team failing to supply a correct lineup and starters. If you go by that, you should never have any problems figuring out what to do.

In (a), the correct lineup and starters were supplied by the team and the official scorer screwed them up. No "T".

In (b), the visiting team failed to supply a correct lineup and starters. That is a "T".

[Odd Duck]

I have had a similar situation...when scorekeeper was copying names and numbers he transposed the numbers on one player. We noticed it when the first foul was reported on "blue 24" and there was only "blue 42" in the book. The coach immediately said that was not what the sheet he presented to the table contained. Scorekeeper showed me the sheet and he had indeed copied the wrong number...OK, nobody is perfect...correct your mistake and lets go.

I would take the same approach here...look at the starters that were marked on the book/sheet provided to the "home book", if they were correct there then I don't see how you can punish the team because the scorekeeper was careless...or, if you like conspiracies, intentionally marked the wrong players in an attempt to draw a T.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Odd Duck

..or, if you like conspiracies, intentionally marked the wrong players in an attempt to draw a T.

If I had any way of knowing for sure that a scorekeeper did this, there would be no T, but I'd hold everything up until this jerk was replaced. That kind of idiocy has no place in basketball.

[flaref0812]

I have made it my practice to review the book for number of players, correct numbers & starters. Then I go to each HC and ask them to review their lineups, starters, # to ensure the book is correct and say we don't want to start this game with any shooting fouls.

In the last 3 games I've officiated, the coach did, in fact, find an error and was grateful and thankful for my giving them the book to review.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by flaref0812

I have made it my practice to review the book for number of players, correct numbers & starters. Then I go to each HC and ask them to review their lineups, starters, # to ensure the book is correct and say we don't want to start this game with any shooting fouls.

In the last 3 games I've officiated, the coach did, in fact, find an error and was grateful and thankful for my giving them the book to review.

Great advice Flare! Also from my understanding, officials for varsity games should review the book and get the coaches to sign off on it. I don't know if and where this is written but its my understanding...

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Da Official

Great advice Flare! Also from my understanding, officials for varsity games should review the book and get the coaches to sign off on it. I don't know if and where this is written but its my understanding...

I don't know where you read or heard that. Maybe thats a local management thing in your area. The coaches have signed off on the book by submitting their rosters before the 10 minute mark.

Not that Flares advice is bad, but I for one am not going to remind the coaches to double check the book to make sure it is correct. If the book isn't correct by the 10 minute mark then thats on the coaches.

Once I go over to check the book (Close the book out) I'm checking that #'s are legal, number of players in the book is either the same or more then the # on the floor, & that the starters are designated.

Its really not my job, IMO, to do the coaches job of making sure there isn't a mistake. If a situation happens where the scorer transposed the #'s over wrong then I would handle just like the others and fix it without penalty.

I had a situation this year in a game where a player substituted in, the # on his jersey was 24 but he was in the book as 42. I checked the visiting book (which was this players book) and they also had him as 42. I assessed a admin. "T".

Once I get to the book I'm assuming both coaches have done their jobs and has made sure that the information in the book is correct.

[Stat-Man]

i had somethign similar happen in a 6th grade boys game yesterday. Visting team submitted their scorebook, but had no starters listed. However, the coach had a list of his players and which quarters he was planning to play them*. Since the 10 minute mark was coming up, I just put the names listed to start the first quarter.

After announcing the starters, the visiting coach is telling our coach that #14 was supposed to start instead of #5. Technically, I don't know if this should be penalized, but I wasn't going to make too big a deal out of it.

-
* in our CYO league, players on the 6th grade level must appear in 2 quaterrs, but no more than 3 in a regulation game. In overtime, anyone may play.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I don't know where you read or heard that. Maybe thats a local management thing in your area. The coaches have signed off on the book by submitting their rosters before the 10 minute mark.

Not that Flares advice is bad, but I for one am not going to remind the coaches to double check the book to make sure it is correct. If the book isn't correct by the 10 minute mark then thats on the coaches.

Once I go over to check the book (Close the book out) I'm checking that #'s are legal, number of players in the book is either the same or more then the # on the floor, & that the starters are designated.

Its really not my job, IMO, to do the coaches job of making sure there isn't a mistake. If a situation happens where the scorer transposed the #'s over wrong then I would handle just like the others and fix it without penalty.

I had a situation this year in a game where a player substituted in, the # on his jersey was 24 but he was in the book as 42. I checked the visiting book (which was this players book) and they also had him as 42. I assessed a admin. "T".

Once I get to the book I'm assuming both coaches have done their jobs and has made sure that the information in the book is correct.

Good post -- coaches have a job, we have a job, players have a job, and the table has a job. We need to be able to work together, however we need to be able to differentiate our resonsibilities in case of an the absence/disregard of responsibility and order correct penalties can be applied.

[Drizzle]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I don't know where you read or heard that. Maybe thats a local management thing in your area. The coaches have signed off on the book by submitting their rosters before the 10 minute mark.

Not that Flares advice is bad, but I for one am not going to remind the coaches to double check the book to make sure it is correct. If the book isn't correct by the 10 minute mark then thats on the coaches.

Once I go over to check the book (Close the book out) I'm checking that #'s are legal, number of players in the book is either the same or more then the # on the floor, & that the starters are designated.

Its really not my job, IMO, to do the coaches job of making sure there isn't a mistake. If a situation happens where the scorer transposed the #'s over wrong then I would handle just like the others and fix it without penalty.

I had a situation this year in a game where a player substituted in, the # on his jersey was 24 but he was in the book as 42. I checked the visiting book (which was this players book) and they also had him as 42. I assessed a admin. "T".

Once I get to the book I'm assuming both coaches have done their jobs and has made sure that the information in the book is correct.

Is having the coach sign the book another one of those things we do in Texas that nobody else does?

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Drizzle

Is having the coach sign the book another one of those things we do in Texas that nobody else does?

Never heard of it before and we certainly don't do it in Indiana.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Drizzle

Is having the coach sign the book another one of those things we do in Texas that nobody else does?

No, I do it here in Missouri. IMO, I view it as a good game management tool.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Da Official

Great advice Flare!

Can't be sure, but I don't think he is "Flare". I think he's FLA Ref. Like, from Florida. Flare is kinda a cool nickname, though.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Can't be sure, but I don't think he is "Flare". I think he's FLA Ref. Like, from Florida. Flare is kinda a cool nickname, though.

No, it's actually Flare. And it's more than just a cool nickname. It's because of the retro, yet fashionable polyester pants he wears.

[flaref0812]

thank you to Scrapper I and Back in the Saddle for the "cool nickname". But the username is FLAREF0812 for Florida Ref ( the numbers are winning numbers for me in the State Lottery).

To answer Gimelit25ID - I know that coaches, officials (including table) have their jobs/responsibilities to do correctly and accurately. BUT it is only a courtesy and a precursor to avoiding starting the game w/FT's. IMHO it is good game management.

It is not a requirement in our state or local association.