The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 01:36pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 195
warning or whack?

First let me preface by saying it's been quite a week. Out of all the JV, MS and men's rec ive worked this year, haven't given out any T's...until now.

Wednesday mens rec - 2 flagrant ejections for fighting in game 1 and two techs in game 2

Friday frosh game whacked a kid of yelling at me about the other team tapping the ball after it came out of the net

Now today I'd like some opinions on. Boy's 8th grade game. white team HC is ALWAYS chirpy. We probably give him too much rope as it is. So it's the 2nd quarter, his team gets something like 6 or 7 offensive rebounds in a row, keeps jumping into the defenders who are straight up and just throwing the ball in the vicinity of the basket. On my way down the floor after they finally score, HC asks why there was no fouls w/ all that contat. My reply was, "Coach, your players are initiating the contact and throwing the ball towards the basket. I'm not going to bail them out by calling a foul when they initiate the contact and take a bad shot." He said it wasn't "bailing them out" to call a foul. I told the coach that regardless of what you want to call it. His guys weren't getting fouled. I now move down as the L, get a real obvious shooting foul on one of his kids. As I'm going by his bench to report the foul, his assistant said "you just bailed their team out right there!!" WHACK.

Coach tells me at halftime he can't believe i whacked his coach w/o giving a warning first. I explained he didn't need to be warned and if he's going to say something like that when i'm 3 feet from him, he should be penalized. So, given what was said, what do you think you'd have done? Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 01:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 101
Sounds like you might have let play get a little out of hand. Up to that point were you calling any blocks or charges on the teams. If you were just letting them play then maybe HC was getting frustrated that his team wasn't scoring on all of those shots taken. For 8th graders, I'd pull them aside and calm them down, once I saw too much contact. It works!! Remember, these coaches for the most part don't really have a full grasp on the game.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 01:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 195
The situation wasn't at all out of hand. This wasn't a rough play kind of thing with bodies flying all over the floor, and we were about 30 seconds into the 2nd quarter. The players would get a rebound, head fake, then jump into the players on defense who were straight up. No offense foul type of contact or anything like that, just trying to draw a foul and initiating contact.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 02:02pm
9/11 - Never Forget
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,642
Send a message via Yahoo to grunewar
Gotta be there to really know.....however, from what is posted, I'd say - ya don't need to talk to the coach so much. Be brief and just get away. AND never take nuttin from the asst coach(s) - they should be seen and not heard. If you feel it was a good T and he was out of line - whack em and live with it.

I usually regret more the T I should have given and didn't....as opposed to the ones I do give.
__________________
There was the person who sent ten puns to friends, with the hope that at least one of the puns would make them laugh. No pun in ten did.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 02:04pm
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
Quote:
Originally Posted by rngrck
Sounds like you might have let play get a little out of hand.
What did the OP say that would make this be the first thing you say? Maybe you don't understand how to differentiate between a foul and a defender who isn't doing anything illegal. I wasn't there and I can't say for sure if any fouls occured, how can you?
__________________
"Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are." -- John Wooden
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 02:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 195
[QUOTE=grunewar]Gotta be there to really know.....however, from what is posted, I'd say - ya don't need to talk to the coach so much. Be brief and just get away. AND never take nuttin from the asst coach(s) - they should be seen and not heard. If you feel it was a good T and he was out of line - whack em and live with it.

I usually regret more the T I should have given and didn't....as opposed to the ones I do give.[/QUOTE]

great point
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Feb 02, 2008, 09:01pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
There is no one size fits all answer to dealing with coaches. From your description, if I were your partner I would okay with your T.

As has been pointed out, your reported conversation with the coach was probably too long. However, at the 8th grade level many coaches are as ignorant as their players and a little (emphasis on the little) education can be a good thing. That's a feel you have to develop.

I will talk to a HC all night long as long as he's willing to keep the conversation appropriate. OTOH assistant coaches speak to me at my pleasure. If they address me in anything other than a respectful manner, well they pays their money and they takes their chances. And their ignorance of their true role and the boundaries that exist provides no shield for them.

However, unless the assistant's outburst is over the line, I will usually warn the HC that his assistant's behavior is about to cost him his box. A good coach will take care of it for me; the other kind will at least not be surprised to find themselves seat-belted (though they'll still complain bitterly about it).

Having said that, the occassional whack for the first offense is good for an assistant coach. It keeps him from developing a mentality that the first offense is a freebie because the official MUST give a warning. A little irrational fear is a good thing
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 03, 2008, 08:15pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by rngrck
Sounds like you might have let play get a little out of hand. Up to that point were you calling any blocks or charges on the teams. If you were just letting them play then maybe HC was getting frustrated that his team wasn't scoring on all of those shots taken. For 8th graders, I'd pull them aside and calm them down, once I saw too much contact. It works!! Remember, these coaches for the most part don't really have a full grasp on the game.

1. I have zero issues with the T the way you explained it.
2. I have no problems with your conversation with the coach, if you can get that in and still officiate - - - - fine.
3. In no way was the play out of hand as "rngrck" has insinuated. There is and always will be contact in basketball that doesn't warrant a foul. BLOCKS and CHARGES...I didn't understand that comment at all and "pull them aside". Don't go there! Keep up the good work and I have come to the conclusion that I won't be taking all advice on this DB to heart because there is some that doesn't make a lot of sense.
__________________
Do you really think it matters, Eddy?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 03, 2008, 10:46pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 719
Quote:
Originally Posted by RushmoreRef
..... Keep up the good work and I have come to the conclusion that I won't be taking all advice on this DB to heart because there is some that doesn't make a lot of sense.
Rush,
This is a very key observation on your part. Problably not necessary to make the comment.

Keep in mind that many of the officials that come here are looking for insight to become better officials. When they joined they were looking for a sounding board to support their actions and interpretations. Others came here as more experienced officials trying to offer insight to younger/newer officials. Often the two don't really come together in complete agreement.

There are alot of different approaches to getting things done, it is a matter of determining whether the advice given is of any value to you (or those seeking the advice).
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2008, 09:02am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lakewood, Ohio
Posts: 718
To quote myself:

Quote:
Assistant coaches should be seen and not heard.
Assistant coaches should NEVER, EVER question a call. Its not their place. If I had not just had a conversation with the head coach explaining my non-call, then a warning might be in order. But if I have just had that conversation and an assistant coach basically questions my integrity as that one did for you, a T is definitely warranted.

Rule of thumb with coaches....the less you say the better, so you aren't caught by your own words. "Coach there was nothing there" is about as far as I would've gone in that situation.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2008, 09:06am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 195
Thanks guys. A little update and some more info on the game. I didn't want to write a novel in my first post (only half of one) so i didn't include this at the beginning. Coach got whacked in the 2nd qtr as I described. In the third quarter, kid from the same team (home team) hit the floor. It wasn't in my PCA so I didn't see it. Ball goes out of bounds right after he hits the ground. Parent for home team stands up and yells "if someone gets knocked on their a--, it's a GD foul!!!!". Everyone hears this b/c it isn't crowded. H1 in front of me in the middle of the court, turns around to her and yells "you tell 'em michelle". I really didn't want to T the kid up, i said "you do anything else like that and you're getting a T" and the kid just smirks and walks away. In the 4th qtr, he's on defense in the BC, goes for a tie-up, rips the ball away from the offensive player and stumbles and takes 3 or 4 steps. I hit the whistle and call a walk, he yells "oh my God" and slams the ball down. Whack. Number 2 of the game. If i'd pulled anything like this in 8th grade, i think my coach would have beat me after the game and my parents would have been mad that the coach beat them to it.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2008, 09:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 18,016
Quote:
Originally Posted by JS 20
. My reply was, "Coach, your players are initiating the contact and throwing the ball towards the basket. I'm not going to bail them out by calling a foul when they initiate the contact and take a bad shot."
My first thought, before reading where this went, was that I would try very hard not to use a phrase like "bail them out" when talking to a coach. I try to stick to the rules / judgment, and try to use "5 words or fewer".

So, I might try "The defense is remaining vertical"

I might even use your first part, "Your players are initiating contact"
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2008, 09:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,896
I find "Your players are initiating the contact" works very well....most of the time.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2008, 09:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Richmond, IN
Posts: 402
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
My first thought, before reading where this went, was that I would try very hard not to use a phrase like "bail them out" when talking to a coach. I try to stick to the rules / judgment, and try to use "5 words or fewer".

So, I might try "The defense is remaining vertical"

I might even use your first part, "Your players are initiating contact"
As I was reading through the thread Bob's post was my only response. I think sometimes we tend to get ourselves into trouble by some of the comments we make to the coach.

We all have done it and hopefully have realized afterward that maybe what we said wasn't the best. I have learned over the years & do my utmost best to give a rule book answer to a coaches question. There really isn't a whole lot a coach can say in response to a rule book answer.

Your "bail them out," phrase opened the door for the Asst. coaches comments. Not that I don't agree with your "T" just that maybe you wouldn't have had to give it if your comments were verbalized a little different.

Communication is but one essential key to good officiating. The better communicator you are the better official you will become. This in no way shape or form means we won't take care of business. If we understand that the coach, (@ any level,) has put a lot of time into getting his/her team ready for this game & that sometimes they may get a little vocal or excited about a call/no call. If they do and we have the capability to communicate what happened in a professional way then we can by proper communication, diffuse situations before they escalate. (IMHO)
__________________
It is what it is!!
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 04, 2008, 10:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: TX
Posts: 241
Listening to the story (and not being there) I would conclude that the "T" was definitely warranted. There is a way to talk to someone and a way to make fun of or attempt to belittle and unfortunately the Asst Coach took the wrong route.

I also agree with the last 2 or 3 posts that if we (including myself) could learn to better effectively communicate and properly disfuse situations, all parties involved (even the officials) could have a much better basketball experience.

Peace...(and by the way I ejected my first coach on Saturday...4th grade Rec ball...ridiculous...was it something in the water?)
__________________
Da Official
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Whack him! Rita C Basketball 14 Sun Nov 26, 2006 07:37pm
WARNING!!! WARNING!! Annual off-topic baseball thread!! ChuckElias Basketball 583 Sat Jan 21, 2006 05:28pm
Whack early, whack often rainmaker Basketball 17 Wed Oct 19, 2005 07:22am
To Whack, or not to Whack Adam Basketball 11 Sat Feb 05, 2005 08:17pm
Whack! ...Thanks! mick Basketball 3 Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:52am


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:02pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1