warning or whack?

[rngrck]

Sounds like you might have let play get a little out of hand. Up to that point were you calling any blocks or charges on the teams. If you were just letting them play then maybe HC was getting frustrated that his team wasn't scoring on all of those shots taken. For 8th graders, I'd pull them aside and calm them down, once I saw too much contact. It works!! Remember, these coaches for the most part don't really have a full grasp on the game.

[JS 20]

The situation wasn't at all out of hand. This wasn't a rough play kind of thing with bodies flying all over the floor, and we were about 30 seconds into the 2nd quarter. The players would get a rebound, head fake, then jump into the players on defense who were straight up. No offense foul type of contact or anything like that, just trying to draw a foul and initiating contact.

[grunewar]

Gotta be there to really know.....however, from what is posted, I'd say - ya don't need to talk to the coach so much. Be brief and just get away. AND never take nuttin from the asst coach(s) - they should be seen and not heard. If you feel it was a good T and he was out of line - whack em and live with it.

I usually regret more the T I should have given and didn't....as opposed to the ones I do give.

[JS 20]

[QUOTE=grunewar]Gotta be there to really know.....however, from what is posted, I'd say - ya don't need to talk to the coach so much. Be brief and just get away. AND never take nuttin from the asst coach(s) - they should be seen and not heard. If you feel it was a good T and he was out of line - whack em and live with it.

I usually regret more the T I should have given and didn't....as opposed to the ones I do give.[/QUOTE]

great point

[Back In The Saddle]

There is no one size fits all answer to dealing with coaches. From your description, if I were your partner I would okay with your T.

As has been pointed out, your reported conversation with the coach was probably too long. However, at the 8th grade level many coaches are as ignorant as their players and a little (emphasis on the little) education can be a good thing. That's a feel you have to develop.

I will talk to a HC all night long as long as he's willing to keep the conversation appropriate. OTOH assistant coaches speak to me at my pleasure. If they address me in anything other than a respectful manner, well they pays their money and they takes their chances. And their ignorance of their true role and the boundaries that exist provides no shield for them.

However, unless the assistant's outburst is over the line, I will usually warn the HC that his assistant's behavior is about to cost him his box. A good coach will take care of it for me; the other kind will at least not be surprised to find themselves seat-belted (though they'll still complain bitterly about it).

Having said that, the occassional whack for the first offense is good for an assistant coach. It keeps him from developing a mentality that the first offense is a freebie because the official MUST give a warning. A little irrational fear is a good thing

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rngrck

Sounds like you might have let play get a little out of hand.

What did the OP say that would make this be the first thing you say? Maybe you don't understand how to differentiate between a foul and a defender who isn't doing anything illegal. I wasn't there and I can't say for sure if any fouls occured, how can you?

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by rngrck

Sounds like you might have let play get a little out of hand. Up to that point were you calling any blocks or charges on the teams. If you were just letting them play then maybe HC was getting frustrated that his team wasn't scoring on all of those shots taken. For 8th graders, I'd pull them aside and calm them down, once I saw too much contact. It works!! Remember, these coaches for the most part don't really have a full grasp on the game.

1. I have zero issues with the T the way you explained it.
2. I have no problems with your conversation with the coach, if you can get that in and still officiate - - - - fine.
3. In no way was the play out of hand as "rngrck" has insinuated. There is and always will be contact in basketball that doesn't warrant a foul. BLOCKS and CHARGES...I didn't understand that comment at all and "pull them aside". Don't go there! Keep up the good work and I have come to the conclusion that I won't be taking all advice on this DB to heart because there is some that doesn't make a lot of sense.

[icallfouls]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

..... Keep up the good work and I have come to the conclusion that I won't be taking all advice on this DB to heart because there is some that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Rush,
This is a very key observation on your part. Problably not necessary to make the comment.

Keep in mind that many of the officials that come here are looking for insight to become better officials. When they joined they were looking for a sounding board to support their actions and interpretations. Others came here as more experienced officials trying to offer insight to younger/newer officials. Often the two don't really come together in complete agreement.

There are alot of different approaches to getting things done, it is a matter of determining whether the advice given is of any value to you (or those seeking the advice).

[Ignats75]

To quote myself:

Assistant coaches should be seen and not heard.

Assistant coaches should NEVER, EVER question a call. Its not their place. If I had not just had a conversation with the head coach explaining my non-call, then a warning might be in order. But if I have just had that conversation and an assistant coach basically questions my integrity as that one did for you, a T is definitely warranted.

Rule of thumb with coaches....the less you say the better, so you aren't caught by your own words. "Coach there was nothing there" is about as far as I would've gone in that situation.

[JS 20]

Thanks guys. A little update and some more info on the game. I didn't want to write a novel in my first post (only half of one) so i didn't include this at the beginning. Coach got whacked in the 2nd qtr as I described. In the third quarter, kid from the same team (home team) hit the floor. It wasn't in my PCA so I didn't see it. Ball goes out of bounds right after he hits the ground. Parent for home team stands up and yells "if someone gets knocked on their a--, it's a GD foul!!!!". Everyone hears this b/c it isn't crowded. H1 in front of me in the middle of the court, turns around to her and yells "you tell 'em michelle". I really didn't want to T the kid up, i said "you do anything else like that and you're getting a T" and the kid just smirks and walks away. In the 4th qtr, he's on defense in the BC, goes for a tie-up, rips the ball away from the offensive player and stumbles and takes 3 or 4 steps. I hit the whistle and call a walk, he yells "oh my God" and slams the ball down. Whack. Number 2 of the game. If i'd pulled anything like this in 8th grade, i think my coach would have beat me after the game and my parents would have been mad that the coach beat them to it.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JS 20

Thanks guys. A little update and some more info on the game. I didn't want to write a novel in my first post (only half of one) so i didn't include this at the beginning. Coach got whacked in the 2nd qtr as I described. In the third quarter, kid from the same team (home team) hit the floor. It wasn't in my PCA so I didn't see it. Ball goes out of bounds right after he hits the ground. Parent for home team stands up and yells "if someone gets knocked on their a--, it's a GD foul!!!!". Everyone hears this b/c it isn't crowded. H1 in front of me in the middle of the court, turns around to her and yells "you tell 'em michelle". I really didn't want to T the kid up, i said "you do anything else like that and you're getting a T" and the kid just smirks and walks away. In the 4th qtr, he's on defense in the BC, goes for a tie-up, rips the ball away from the offensive player and stumbles and takes 3 or 4 steps. I hit the whistle and call a walk, he yells "oh my God" and slams the ball down. Whack. Number 2 of the game. If i'd pulled anything like this in 8th grade, i think my coach would have beat me after the game and my parents would have been mad that the coach beat them to it.

Would anyone else here consider having game management remove this fan? BTW, this kid earned a T for inciting the crowd. I'd have called that, too.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Would anyone else here consider having game management remove this fan? BTW, this kid earned a T for inciting the crowd. I'd have called that, too.

Yes!! Agree completely!

[JS 20]

Problem was, my back was to the crowd and I had no idea who did it. I should have t'd the kid up then. I regret not doing so.

As far as rephrashing what I said to the coach, I agree completely. I didn't "bait" the asst. into a T however I certainly left the door open for it to happen as Gimlet25id stated. I'll put this on the list of phrases that don't work. I should have said "coach, the defenders were straight up and your players were initiaing all the contact" and just left it at that.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Would anyone else here consider having game management remove this fan? BTW, this kid earned a T for inciting the crowd. I'd have called that, too.

Without question. Especially at the 8th grade level. COmpletely unacceptable.