Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up
 

I got a question from a junior varsity official, that I can't answer definitively, so I decided to go to the Forum for help.

The offical steps onto the court and begins observing the junior varsity players warming up before the junior varsity game. He observes that there seems to be way too many players, from one team, warming up. As the referee, he goes to check the book before the ten minute mark, and sure enough, there are a lot more players warming up, than are in the book. He questions the junior varsity coach about this, who replies that the varsity players are also warming up with the junior varsity team, as they "always" do. The referee requests that the varsity players leave the court, after which the varsity coach interjects by saying that the varsity players "always" do this, but he pulls his varsity players off the court.

Other than NFHS 2-3 "The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules", is there a rule that deals with situation, or is this a situation that doesn't need to be dealt with, in other words, ignore it? What about a liability issue if the official allows this and a varsity player gets injured during the junior varsity warmups? Does the defintion of a "player" impact this situation?

Pre game warm-ups are for only the team that is playing. What do you do if you let the varsity squad warm-up with the JV and the V-player dunks the ball?

Who are you going to charge the "T" to?

It's a team technical. Whether or not that dunk-er is a "player", he's on the floor and he's responsible to follow the rules, and the coach is responsible too, when he doesn't. If the coach doesn't like starting the game with shots by the opponent, then he can get those kids under control.

Citation Please ??
 

I agree, but are there rules to support this?

I don't have rulebooks ATM, but I am going to make a small point.

What if the coach is warming up with the players? I have seen coaches bounce balls to players in specific drills, are you going to disallow this too? Afterall, the coach is not listed in the book.

Rulebooks ATM? Wow, NFHS goes from complete secrecy to total open access. Cool!!

I agree that the coach should be responsible for the conduct of non team personnel. However this would usually fall to game management to control. If a "TEAM MEMBER," dunks in warm-ups then its charged to that player then indirectly to the coach.

The only references to the warm ups that I can find is in the manual. Duties to include checking legality of uniforms, # of each member, etc... The diagram specifically say home team & visiting team. I would say that is pretty clear as to who is to be on the floor.

The coach is still part of the team even though he/she isn't in the book.

I am going to jump into this one with both feet and my eyes wide open.

1) The HC of the jr. varsity team is responsible for players warming up at his team's basketball before the start of the game. It is not game management's problem.

2) If the jr. varsity HC wants to let the varsity players warm-up with the JV players, I do not care. I only care about the number of names in the socrebook at the ten minute mark. I do not care if I count fifteen players and ten names in the scorebook because five VAR players are warming up; it is not my problem. The tean has submitted their roster and they have to live by what they have in the scorebook.

3) If one of those VAR players dunks the ball prior to the ten minute mark, then that player, JV head coach, JV team will suffer the consequences. TF charged directly to the VAR player, TF charged indirectly to the JV head coach (and he loses the coaching box if the game is in a state where the coaching box is used), one team foul charged to the JV team's 7 and 10 foul team totals. And the VAR player's name will have to be added to the roster when it is submitted prior to the ten minute mark.

4) If one of those VAR players dunks the ball after the ten minute mark, then that player, JV head coach, JV team will suffer the consequences. TF charged directly to the VAR player, TF charged indirectly to the JV head coach (and he loses the coaching box if the game is in a state where the coaching box is used), adminstrative TF charged to the JV team for adding a player to its roster after the ten minute mark (the VAR player's name has to be added to the roster). Therefore two team fouls are charged to the JV team's 7 and 10 foul team totals. BUT if one can prove by rule that there should not be and administrative TF charged to the JV team I can live with that too.

MTD, Sr.

Gimlet:

Where in the world did you ever get the idea the Game Management is responsible for the VAR players in this situation. I am sorry,but that is just absurd to make such a statement.

MTD, Sr.

I agree with everything you said except these things. I'm not sure I disagree with these, but I'm trying to figure out where you came up with them. Is this a 2-3 thing?

Juulie:

I don't necessarily disagree with you. You are charging a player with TF, so his name should end up in the book is the logic I am using. Having said that if a ruling comes down that we are not to put the players name in the book, I can live with that too. I think it is just a speed bump among the mountains of life.

MTD, Sr.

Yea, putting a senior's name into the book, which will now force JV game to be forfeit perhaps, well, that's not a battle I'm willing to fight. Call the T, coach A gets the seatbelt, team B starts the game with two shots and the ball, that's enough to get the coach yelling at those idiot varsity players, imo. Maybe next time he'll be paying more attention to what's happening on his own end of the court.

Juulie:

How would putting a senior's name in the JV book cause a forfeit?

MTD, Sr.

Come on MTD read the entire post. That was in response to Rainmakers post...that it doesn't matter if the dunker is a player. Its a little ABSURD to make a comment without reading the context of the entire post. (IMHO)

Assuming the player wasn't on the playing team (JV Team). It still begs the question what if you do allow the varsity members to warm up with the JV team and a Varsity member dunks? How would you penalize it?

I'm thinking @ that time he isn't a player for that game. He's not going to be bench personnel either. So really he's nothing more then a fan @ that time.

A team is defined in rule 4-34. The people that you want to nail aren't part of the team. The head coach is responsible for bench personnel(10-4) also so you can't nail him. Anybody else is a "spectator" and home management is responsible for them. Rule 2-8-1NOTE. You can penalize a team's followers, but it generally isn't recommended.

Just go to home management and get them to remove everybody not connected to the team from the court.

There's old threads around on this one iirc.

Well, the book doesn't discuss this situation, so I'm looking at it this way. Coach is responsible for warm-ups. Whoever is on the floor is there with his permission either express or implicit. If that a var player dunks before a JV game, he can't get a T (unless, like MTD recommends you add the name to the JV book), so you just make it a team T, seatbelt the coach, and take it from there. This is what I've done in the past and my commissioner said it worked for him.

I don't think you can make game management responsible. What if it's the visiting team? WHen should game management step in and tell ... who?... to get off the court, or to not dunk? And if the visiting var player does dunk during the JV warm-ups, THEN how do you penalize??? Can't penalize home game management!!

Does this apply only when the non-team-members are dunking? If they're just hanging around, shooting around, etc, is that okay?

You recommend calling a team technical foul and you want to seatbelt the coach also?

Juulie, the head coach is responsible for his team. Game administration is responsible for everybody else. It's that simple.

I agree that if a V player dunks while the JV game is warming up that it stands to reason that we ought to penalize the BRAIN FART. That being said I don't know how in the world you can whack a non-player for the team that is going to play, add his name to the book, & penalize the coach.The varsity player isn't a team member of the JV team.

This is exactly why you shouldn't allow anyone but the team members to warm up.

Lets say for example the varsity player was suspended for a couple of games and was going to sit on the bench to help the JV squad then you could whack him as bench personnel and charge indirectly to the HC.

If its possible to rule like you have suggested could you please post the rule reference. Honestly I would like to penalize the idiot I just don't see how you can?

yep, it was discussed about a year or two ago.

Gimlet:

I did read the entire post. And my quesiton to you still stands. By what logic do you come to the conlusion that Game Management is resposible for the VAR players warming up with the JV players? There is no logic and you just made a statement that you thought would CYA so that you wouldn't have to earn the big bucks you are being paid to officiate the game.

MTD, Sr.

Get game management to deal with 'em. That's their responsibility.

Well, with a team T, don't you have to give the seatbelt?

Hhmmm, I'll take that up with my commish. I've been told differently. I just don't see how home management can be responsible for visiting varsity players. And again I ask, are the var players allowed, as long as they don't break the rules?

If we do this right, Gimlet, you and I can duck out and have a tall one while MTD and JR duke it out. Agreed?:D

What if a fan comes out of the stands, picks up a ball and dunks it? Your whacking the coach, adding the fan to the book (just kidding), sitting the coach...

I came to the samee conclusion. They ain't part of the team, as defined in 4-34. They aren't the head coach's responsibility, as per 10-4. That leaves 2-8-1NOTE--"team followers or supporters".

Coors works for me...;)

Why are you leaving poor ol' Mark by his lonesome? You agree with him, don't you?

I know you do. I"m just saying, I'm gonna go look in my books, think about it and get back to you. Let MTD do the arguing. Gotta admit, agreeing with MTD doesn't feel real comfortable, and disagreeing with you doesn't either. SO I'll let ya'll figure it out, and then Gimlet and I will check back in for the Supreme COurt ruling. K?

I don't. Just get game management to get them off the court.

There...now I disagree with everybody.

Rules ???
 

Alright, I finally got out of my comfortable chair and got my rule book out of my bag. Here's what I found:

4-5-1: A team's own basket is the one into which its players try to throw or tap the ball.

4-5-2: Each team's basket for practice before the game and for the first half shall be the one farther from its team bench.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limnited to, substitutes, coaches, managers, and statisticians. During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

So, only those individuals who are eligible to become a player are team members, and only team members are allowed to warm up, thus, if a varsity individual is not eligible to become a player, because the coach doesn't want him to play in the junior varsity game, and/or his, or her name, is not in the junior varsity book, then the official has the right, by rule, to exclude those varsity individuals from warmups.

How does that sound?

I can't believe that your commish told you that. There is <b>NEVER</b> a seatbelt with a team "T".

I knew it was coming...:D My point was that if a VP does this then it would be nice to be able by rule to penalize it. I just don't think by rule you can and that game management would have to deal with the situation.

Okay, I didn't put that stuff in to the post correctly.

Commish didn't tell me there is always a seatbelt with a team T. You KNOW he would never say anything that incorrect.

What Commish told me was that I'd handled the var dunking in a JV warm-up correctly. I see what you mean about the team T. I was thinking a bench T. always a seatbelt with a bench T. so I guess he was figuring to treat them as bench personnel, since he didn't have a problem with the seatbelt.

Whatever this means.......:rolleyes:

Lets all use a little logic and common sense on this one. Think about the broader picture and game management.

if the varsity squad is gunna warm-up with the JV squad who cares? I wouldn't even go talk to the coach. Let them warm up with them. IF a varsity player dunks go head with the T, and I'll bet all the money in my pockets ($2.34 + a $50.00 gift card if the winner is Brad ;-) ) that the coach pulls the V squad off. You can't directly penalize the Varsity player, all you can do is issue the T to the team and start the game that way. I've read way to many 'what ifs' here.

How do you give a Team technical? Supporters/followers?

Indirect on the coach "responsible for personel blah blah blah" only counts as a team foul.

Nice!:) Seriously there really isn't a way to penalize the coach for a non team member infraction. I suppose I could see the TEAM T for actions of the followers/supporters although not recommended.

This hypothetical situation is why nobody but the team members of that game should be warming up!!

The best way to look at this is to divide the play into two different situations: Play 1: A dunk by a VAR player before the ten-minute mark; and Play 2: A dunk by a VAR player after the ten-minute mark.


Play 1: This is the easy play. The officails count players. Team A has 15 players in uniform on the court warming up. Who cares if they are JV or VAR players, the officials don't care because they don't need to care until the ten-minute mark. Direct TF charged to the VAR player, indirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it. If JV-HC complains that the dunker is a VAR player, too bad, he was out there in uniform warming up. It is not the officials' job to take a census of the players when they take jurisdicion of the game at the fifteen minute mark. Whether the VAR player's name is added to the Scorebook is another matter but is not really germaine to the Play.


Play 2: This situation is a bit of a sticky wicket. Let me give an example. The R checks the Scorebook and discovers that Team A has twelve players warming up but only eleven players in the book. The R goes to A-HC and informs him of the discrepency. A-HC tells you that he doesn't intend to play A-12 unless he really needs to and is willing to let Team A be charged with an administrative TF if he later wants to add A-12's name to the book. Can the official tell A-HC that A-12 can't warm-up? The answer is no. This is a decision that A-HC can only make (not even game managemnet Gimlet). Now lets see how that applys to our play. A-12 now decides that he wants to dunk and dead ball and does so. What is the R to do? RULING: Direct TF to A-12 (counts toward his two TF's and combination of five PER and TF's), ndirect charged to the JV-HC, and one foul charged to the team's totals for seven and ten in the first half, and yes the JV-C loses the Coaching Box if in a State that uses it. And in my humble opinion A-12's name has to be added to the Scorebook, and an Administrative TF charged to Team A, meaning that Team A has two fouls toward it first half total of seven and ten team fouls.

Is this situation analogous to the VAR players warming up with the JV players before the JV game? I think so. The R discovers only ten names in the score book at the ten-minute mark when there are fifteen players in uniform warming up. The R notifies the JV-HC who informs the R that they VAR players warming up with the JV players. Should the R care? No. Who knows, maybe some of the five VAR players might be added to the JV Scorebook later because they are going to need the bodies to finish the JV game. If VAR-11 then decides to dunk a dead ball. Treat this play the same way as you would if it were A-12 in my example.


The big quesion for both Play 1 and Play 2 is whether to add the player's name to the JV Scorebook and access the penalty for changing the roster if the name is added after the ten-minute mark. I would because you are charging a player (bench personel) with a TF, but I could live with a ruling that says the player's name is not added to the Jv-Scorebook.

MTD, Sr.

Yup, Mark, you convinced me. I'm with JR. No way I could ever pull off the kind of think you're talking about.

The past situation and this situation are different IIRC. The past situation had varsity members dunk the ball (no T), this situation (atleast my impression) is that the coach WANTED them to warm up with the team. Therefore, they are team members. If the coach wants them to warm up with his team, then they are HIS responsbility. No different then if a player dunks it, why complicate this issue?

A coach is only responsible for his team. Rule 10-4. That means he's responsible for his players and bench personnel as listed in rule 4-34.

If you're going to "blah, blah, blah.." and give an indirect "T" to a coach, you better have rules justification to do so. You don't in this situation.

If you're going to do something that going to end up in a game report, you'd better have some rules backing for your action.

Cool. Now find something....anything....in the rules somewhere that will back up those statements. I can't.

Personally I ain't big on making up my own rules. That has a tendency to come back and bite you on the butt.

Juulie:

What is there to pull off. It is not the officials job to take a census of the players warming up on the court as to which ones are JV players and which ones are VAR players. The game officials are to count players period. If one if them decides to dunk the ball he does at his own risk and puts his team at risk.

In Play 1, nobody wants to consider this TF because it was done by a VAR player before the ten-minute mark. Lets tweak Play 1 a bit. Change VAR to A-12. The R goes to the Table to find report the TF and A-HC tells you that A-12's name is't going to be in the Scorebook tongiht because he is not going to play because he has a strained saluting finger in his shooting hand. By your logic you do not have a TF because A-12 is not a player just like the VAR player is not a player. BUT then, when the R checks the Scorebook at the ten-minute, guess what? A-HC has decided to put A-12's name in the Scorebook after all just in case he needed an extra body to finish out the game. Are you going to go back and tell A-HC that you are know going to charge A-12 with a TF for dunking after telling A-HC that you weren't.

The best way to handle this is to remember it is not the officials job to take a census of the players. If they are in uniform and on the court warming up they are to be assumed to be players. If the players and the coaches want to be idiots, so be it, it is not the officials job to protect them from their own stupidity.

MTD, Sr.

Hmmm...I'll give this a crack!

Impossible by rule since the Varsity player isn't a TEAM MEMBER of the JV team nor is he bench personnel...I'll elaborate on later!

It is germane. If the VP isn't bench personnel and he/she isn't in the book then the VP isn't a TEAM MEMBER!!!!! You just can't decide as the official who your going to add to the book. This is only up to the COACH for crying out loud! In your example the player can warm up because he is a TEAM MEMBER who is going to be bench personnel.

Duh!!! The difference here MTD is that the player is BENCH PERSONNEL & still a TEAM MEMBER!!! He doesn't have to be in the book to be bench personnel. If the player dunks, WHACK, Bench T on the player directly and indirectly on the coach and he sits. EASY! Game management wouldn't have anything to do with your example because that player would be bench personnel.

It doesn't apply to our play since the VP isn't a TEAM MEMBER or BENCH PERSONNEL.

Finally I agree because in your play he is.......Guess......BENCH personnel.

Why does his name have to be added if he is bench personnel? Are you serious? So if a player on the bench who the coach was never going to play and was never in the book but is sitting on the bench gets a "T" your going to add his/her name to the book and also pop the team with a ADMIN "T"!!! NOW THATS ABSURD!!!

In the OP the JVC just said they always warm up. After the R makes the varsity squad leave the VHC said that they always warm up together.

He just made a statement and his statement doesn't make them team members. They shouldn't be on the floor during warm ups unless they are a member of the team.

If you don't let non team members on the floor then this hypothetical situation wouldn't happen

A12 is bench personnel if he's gonna sit on the bench. Sez so right in rule 4-34-2. That means that the head coach is responsible for him, as per rule 10-4. If A12 sits on the bench, then A12 gets a "T" and his head coach gets an indirect "T". It ain't rocket science.

Iow, this situation is covered under the rules also. Varsity player who don't sit on the bench are not bench personnel; they are not directly affiliated with with the JV team. That's why they aren't covered under the same rules as A12. The only rule that you could possibly apply to varsity players or anyone other than the JV team that I'm aware of is rule 2-8, and to apply that you'd have to call the varsity player a "follower" or "spectator".

JR:

You are wrong on this one. If I walk on the court and see 15 players in uniform warming up and one of them dunks, he is getting a direct TF and the HC is getting an indirect TF. If the player is in uniform and warming up it is expected that he is a player for that game. Too bad if the HC tells you that the player is a VAR player warming up with the JV team. The VAR player is dumb and the HC is dumber. By your logic, Team A could have all of their VAR players warm-up with the JV players and put on a dunking show without being punished. The rule book states that is at TF to dunk a dead ball and the ball is dead during the pre-game warm-up period and if the players are in uniform and warming up it is because they are warming up to play in that game.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. The Preacher on my side on this play.

Exactly why the varsity can't warm up with the JV squad. If you come out on the floor and let the Varsity warm up with the JV then your asking for a problem to arise.

If you were careless enough to let the Varsity squad warm up with the JV and the Varsity squad puts on a dunking exhibition then that is on you. By rule you have no way to penalize non team members unless you invoke followers/supporters.

None of the examples you listed are anything like what was suggested hypothetically. Post an applicable rule reference that would allow you to do what you said you would do. Whack the non team member, put them in the book, give a ADMIN "T", & sit the coach.

So in other words if a student comes out of the stands and picks up the ball and dunks it then he's getting WHACKED, counts toward his DQ, your adding him to the book, and giving a ADMIN "T".

I suppose that would be one way to make the team!!!:D

I have no idea what all this "discussion" is about.

When the officials take THE FLOOR, their jurisdiction begins.

Warm-ups occur on THE FLOOR. Game management is not needed.

"Coach, I need your team on the floor for warm-ups and no one else."

Gimlet:

I know you are that well versed on the rules so let me guide you through the play. You enter the court for the JV game 15 miuntes before game time. You count 15 players in uniform for Team A and they are all warming-up. You do NOT go to each and ever player and ask them if they are a JV or a VAR player. That is NOT your job. The fact that they are in uniform and warming up implies that they are going to play in the JV game. It is only after one of the Team A players, that are warming up, dunks the ball do you discover that the player that dunked the ball and 4 other players are not JV players but are VAR players. Too bad. Charge the VAR player with a direct TF, the JV Head Coach with and indirect TF and tell the JV Head Coach to get the VAR players off the court. Those are the rules.

And as far as the student coming out of the stands scenario, to say that any official, except, should I dare utter the name Old School, would whack the student is absurd and tells me that the official does not know the rules.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Please do not tell me that when you enter the court for a JV game you go to each and every player and ask them if they are a JV or a VAR player. I hope you don't because if you don't then you have to whack the player when he dunks. Too bad if he is a VAR player. Now you can order the VAR players off the court. When you enter the court for a JV game, how do you know who the JV players and who the VAR players are with out asking them?

4-34-2 Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to, substitutes, coaches, managers, and statisticians. During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel.

That's enough rule for me.

I would have no problem with this, but if he protests because he wants the VAR players to warm up too, then I would allow him as long as he understands he is responsible if they dunk, commit USC, etc...

I'm not gonna read the rest of the thread because this is the answer.

And how do you know there are spectators warming up on the floor? When you go to the table at 12 minutes before the game and see there are only 10 players in the book but 25 players warming up.

I agree....anyone the coach allows on the floor during warmups ARE team personnel. Call them assistant coaches, managers, whatever. But if they violation a rule on the floor, the team gets penalized.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef
"Coach, I need your team on the floor for warm-ups and no one else."

I would have no problem with this, but if he protests because he wants the VAR players to warm up too, then I would allow him as long as he understands he is responsible if they dunk, commit USC, etc...

You are setting yourself up for a long night if you do this. [Not you, Tony.]

Liability ???
 

And what happens if one of those varsity players get severly injured while warming up before the junior varsity game, and it can be proven to be against the rules, and there are 25 individuals warming up, with only 12 in the book. Anyone can sue anybody for almost any reason. Does your association liability insurance cover negligence? Even if you have good insurance, you're still going to have to spend time with lawyers, and make court appearences.

I say, cite a rule, at the least 2-3, and tell them to get off the court.

Um no, that's not what I'm telling you. I saying that I'm going to find out whether the person dunking the ball was a team member or not. If they are, they will get an immediate "T" and the head coach will get an indirect "T". If they aren't, I will immediately get game management to get that player off the court as well as any other non-members of that team that might be on the court. I don't have any rules backing to issue a technical foul to that person if they aren't a team member, let alone issue an accompanying indirect "T" to the coach. A team technical foul under rule 2-8 <b>maybe</b> could be assessed, but I doubt very much if I'd even consider that.

If the coach tells me that the players dunking aren't his team members, I have no reason not to believe him. Soooooo......I'll just handle the situation according to the rules. What I won't do is try to make up my own own rules or read something into a situation that I can't 113% prove.

I'm not surprised that you got this wrong, but I gotta tell you that I am kinda amazed that Darrell agrees with you. He's usually much smarter than that.:p

If the coach tells you that they ain't <u>affiliated</u> with his team but are members of the varsity team, is that still enough rule for you? Especially when they supply team lists that show that along with the complaint that they're gonna put in against you?

The reason you might not believe him is because he's trying to avoid one or more technical fouls. This is the same guy that will soon be saying "HE DIDN'T EVEN TOUCH HIM!"

You are misunderstanding what angle I am coming from.

If the coach says that, THEN I will tell him the VAR team cannot warm up with the JV in the first place.

I will go to the coach immediately and tell him that if he wants the VAR to warm up with his team, then he is responsible for their actions and they will be conisdered "affiliated." Otherwise, as I have already stated, they cannot warm up with the team.

Yes, I was misunderstanding.

I'd still handle it slightly differently though. They ain't warming up- no matter what- if they ain't part of the JV team. I'd just have 'em all removed from the court.

I'm thinking that maybe your explanation of the rules wouldn't be relevant here since you have yet to cite any applicable rules that support your explanation! Other then, "those are the rules."



Of course were not going to do this. Again comprehension is the key in debating a topic. In the OP the "R" found out they were Varsity players when the # of players on the floor didn't match up to the book!

Rarely does the JV uniforms match exactly to the Varsity Uniforms. In fact the warm-ups are usually different. So I'm sure this would be a dead give away.

If this were to happen & the JV coach states that the player is a Varsity player I wouldn't have any rule substantiation to penalize the act of a non team member. I would have GAME MANAGEMENT or the VHC clear those players and any non team members off of the floor. If the player that dunked doesn't sit on the bench and isn't in the book then he is by RULE defined as a non team member.

How in the world are you going to charge a "T" to a person who isn't a member of the team. If you did then does that "T" carry over into the Varsity contest? Does it count toward DQ? I know, your going to add him to the book and assess a ADMIN "T". Please enlighten us and give specific rule reference to this. Not just, "those are the rules."

According to these so called rules that you are invoking. If you can assess a DTF to a non member of the JV team then Surely by your rule book you can assess a DTF to the fan, add the fan to the book, and assess a ADMIN "T" to the JVHC for the roster change after the 10 minute mark.

I mean its the same thing. The rule book is clear on what is a team member. If their not a team member then what are they defined as? You made it clear on what you think should happen however if your so sure your right then the rules should back you up.

Show me in the rule book where the Varsity players would be considered team members of the JV team. If you can do that then I can go along with you on the DTF's, IDTF, etc....:rolleyes:

Gimlet:

ROFLMAO!! I am sorry but it is obvious that you have only been officiating for a short period of time. It is extremely rare to find everybody on the JV team wearing the exact same style uniform, especially for small schools. It is called money. Furthermore, in state like Ohio which has a five quarter per day rule, it is quite possible to have players playing FR, JV, and VAR games on the same day and as long as the jersey color is the same, and there is no duplication of numbers, the player could possible where the same uniform for all three games. Different styles of uniforms do not tell me a thing. It only tells me that some of the players will be dressing for the VAR game too.

MTD, Sr.

I bet you have never lost a argument a day in your life. My point is that if they are DIFFERENT then there is a GOOD CHANCE that you might have a problem especially if the #'s don't match up.

Fortunately were not talking about the legality of uniforms but rather if they are team members or not. Stay on point!

I have tried for 2 hours to respond but everytime I submitted my reply the forum logged me out. I will find out why later.

There are 2 questions under consideration in this thread.
1. Can Varsity Player warm-up with the JV team? (BillieMac)
2. How do we handle a situation in which the Var player dunks. (Gimlet25id)

The answer to both hinges on who we include as fitting the definition of "Bench Personnel' per 4-34-2.

As for responses I will reply first by mentioning the one who brought my name into the fray. The preacher agrees with MTD in part but not the whole. Just because I agreed with the decision to assess the T does not mean I agree with all the analagies you presented nor the logic behind what kind of T it is. (it is not a player technical nor a team technical as Rainmaker said). Nor are we authorized by rule to make a coach submit a name to his roster like you suggested. Also the time on the pregame clock is of no consequence initially.

The Preacher agrees with JR in part but not the whole. We differ only on the definition of bench personnel as I mentioned above. I believe the Varsity players warming up with JV to be bench personnel and JR says no. If JR is right then he has posted the correct solution of how to handle the matter. Get game management to remove everyone not associated with the team. Now the responsibility for safety of the team is in the hands the proper authorities as deemed by rule (See Officials Manual, pg 6, 1.0.7) And just so we are very clear, just because I disagree with JR on who to include in the open defintion of bench personnel I in no way will impugn his logic in reaching his conclusion. Based on his definition he is consistent within the rules of how to solve the situation. (My reasons to include are below)

Is there a need for the rules committee to clarify who may be on the court for pregame warmups? Yes. Just the different opinions by esteemed members of this forum's "rules committee" in this thread back my affirmation. As some have mentioned I could use the elastic clause of Rule 2-2-3 to make a decision but then as JR said it could come back to haunt me later. So to prohibit that I must consider all the rules I know exist for sure before doing so.

Most of the rules cover what to do during the game. Very few address the pregame.

Rule 2-2-2; Officials Jurisdiction begin.
Rule 2-2-4; Referee's pregame duties.
Rule 3-2; Submission of roster, starters, etc 10 min prior.
Rule 4-5-2; Designates pregame warmup basket for each teat
Rule Rule 6-2-2, 6-3; Give requirements for player location on court prior to jump ball to start the game.
Rule 10-1-1,2; Penalty for violating Rule 3-2
Rule 10-3-4; Pregame dunk and penalty
Rule 10-4; Bench technical fouls.

Other rules to consider:
Rule 2-2-1: Officials shall make decisions for infractions of the rules..
Rule 4-34-4; Definition of team member.
Rule 10-4; Head coach responsible for conduct and behavior of bench personnel.

That said let me give my take of the situation.

Rule 4-5-2 only authorizes individuals of a team to be on the court to practice at its team basket prior to the game. Once I take jurisdiction anyone I see practicing there I consider them to be team members (especially anyone wearing official team uniforms and no they do not all have to be identical, only same color and legal). They are bench personnel. I have authority to define them as bench personnel as the definition given in 4-34-2 says the list specifically mentioned is not all inclusive.

If I should observe anyone warming up at the teams basket violate a rule (in this case a pregame dunk) the as an official I am bound by Rule 2-2-1 to invoke the appropriate penalty (Rule 4-32) I will go to the Head Coach and notify him of the person who dunked and that by rule (10-3-4 penalty) he is also assessed an indirect T and also now must remain seated during the game (10-5 Penalty, Note)

So far the time on the pregame clock is of no consequence. Once it reaches 10:00 I will check the book and if the dunkers' name is there he will receive a direct T which counts for one of 5 leading to disqualification. If his name is not listed I will have the scorer note the dunker was bench personnel, note his name and the time of the pre-game infraction.

Bottom line is I will not allow an infraction of this magnitude to go unpunished. As said before if the rules committee ties our hands so the act cannot be punished then this can only lead to chaos. The Varisty teams will all come out and put on a dunk show until game management is rounded up to remove them from the court. Ignoring these actions compromises the safety of everyone.

Too many words. That's why.

Nothing I can say but AMEN.

You know where he caught that particular virus. Too many road trips with the Ohio Orator. :)

Disagree. You have no rules backing as an official to decide who or who not is affiliated with a team. That decision is not within our domain. It lies with the team, not us. The team provides the team list. Pre-game, we have to ask the head coach. Once the game starts, if they're on the bench we can presume that they're affiliated with the team and then proceed accordingly.

First, on the dunking rule. The definition of team personnel includes the listing of "civilians" like Assistant Coaches and trainers. But the definition also uses the words "is NOT limited to". That tells me that Varsity Players Warming up can be considered bench personnel without being in the book. To follow that logic, it would seem to me that a player dunking in pregame, whether in the book or not, IS considered team personnel. Therefore it would result in a direct T on the player as bench personnel, but no need to add him to the roaster, as I had no need to add the trainer to the roster when I assessed him a T last week.:eek: (That was a first) It would also mean an indirect T on the HC as the rules mandate. In Ohio, that also means the HC now has the seatbelt for the game as he has lost the privilege to use the coaching box.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Last year, when this scenario came up, I asked how to handle it at our last Association meeting of the year when we discuss unusual situations that have cropped up. I was surprised when the commissioner of one of the conferences I officiate said it was NO T. Just remove the offending player from the court. :eek: So much for following the logic that I thought was pretty clear.

Yup, and similarly using your logic, someone that jumps out of the stands and dunks the ball can also be considered bench personnel without being in the book. And someone that fell off a turnip truck outside the gym doors, saw the bright lights and decided to come in and get warm, and then said "hey, I can do that." and dunks the ball is also now bench personnel without being in the book, using the same logic.

Good logic.

All you have to add to Ignats' logic to make it clear is individuals participating in warmups "with the coach's permission." Obviously if someone comes out of the stands, grabs a ball, and dunks, you aren't going to issue a T.

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.

And you'd do all that without asking the head coach whether they really are affiliated with his team?

Glad I won't have to answer the complaint when it comes in. I wouldn't have a clue how to justify your logic either under the rules.

I wouldn't have to answer the complaint. I have no doubt my assignor and the state association would back this interpretation up. :D

Seriously...from my perspective players from the same school - regardless of whether they are playing in that particular game - are going to be viewed as bench personnel when they are in the middle of organized warmups prior to the game. I have no doubt that will be supported in my association.

I'd ignore them unless they dunk. If they do, they are in uniform (I assume) so I drop the T on the dunk. Why go looking for problems even before the tip? Address the problem when it occurs.

What if the Vplayers took it upon themselves to just shoot round with the JV team? The JVHC didn't realize they were there or maybe the JVHC isn't on the floor.

Better yet one of the Varsity players who is dressed in their warm ups comes out of the stands behind the JV's bench picks up the ball and throws it down?

4-34 Art.2 "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).....

I agree with JR that we really don't know who is going to be bench personnel unless the coach informs us or if they are in fact sitting on the BENCH.

Case Book 4.34.2 gives a play where a trainer who is @ the end of the bench gets penalized as bench personnel.

This is a perfect example of someone who is AFFILIATED with a team but isn't specifically listed in the rule.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If the Varsity player is in uniform but not eligible to become a player then he can't be considered a team member. If this player doesn't sit on the bench and the coach confirms that he's neither a player or bench personnel then he is just a spectator of the JV game.

Umm...Game Management!!!(Trying to prevent this particular problem) This hypothetical situation is why you don't want anybody but the team that is playing the game warming up.

In the OP the R was given the information from the HC. He then did the right thing, IMO, by having the varsity squad vacate the floor.

If you don't know or can't tell then that is one thing but if you know then, IMO, we should take care of it.

I don't know if there was an interpertation put out a year or two ago. Where in between halves Varsity players where allowed on the court to warming up. Or, is it just the state I'm in where game management was informed not to allow anyone to warm up if they were not apart of the team ACTUALLY playing the game currently.

That's exactly why you ignore it. Game managment. You are causing an needless confrontation on a play that doesn't occur often (I think I've had 1 T for dunking in 8 years and that was in a summer game). Like I said, don't go looking for problems, take care of it when it occurs.

Junker I agree with you that this may never happen or @ least rarely. Nobody is looking for problems! Theres no confrontation @ all. Your just telling the HC that only team members of the team going to play are allowed to warm up. The V players will have their warm up time before their game.

If you don't handle it and you have this situation happen by a non team member then it leads to what this discussion is about. Some agree you can give a "T" and call the varsity player a team member & some don't. The "T" side of the argument isn't clearly rule supported. Why not then just prevent non team members from warming up so that this will not be a problem.

He questions the junior varsity coach about this, who replies that the varsity players are also warming up with the junior varsity team, as they "always" do. The referee requests that the varsity players leave the court, after which the varsity coach interjects by saying that the varsity players "always" do this, but he pulls his varsity players off the court.

I don't know, sounds a bit confrontational to me. Why have this be the first conversation of the night with the coach? If it is always happening, you begin the game by looking like an OOO and you aren't on great terms to begin with. I'd ignore it and talk to my association. If it is ignored every time, I'll be ignoring it as well.

1st: the JV coach cannot absent himself nor play dumb to release himself from his responsibilities per Rule 10.

2nd: Are trainers the only other individuals we could list as bench personnel? NO. The list doesn't stop there.

3rd:All Varsity players are eligible and could become JV players at any time during the night. If the coaches want they can buy the Var player's way into the game with a technical foul for adding a name to the book even if it is with 2 seconds to go in the JV game.

So stop saying they are not eligible just because his name is not in the book nor is he seated on the bench.

I agree! Obviously! However if a Varsity player takes it upon himself to leave the bleacher and dunks the ball the JVHC had no way to avoid it. Further more what if the Varsity player leaves the floor after the dunk with his VARSITY team and isn't within the visual confines of the floor?

I didn't say that it stopped there. The point I was making was that the trainer was on the BENCH and would be a example of affiliated personnel that is on the BENCH.

Sure they could, but what if the player isn't eligible due to suspension or academics, etc. There are a number of situations that would make the player not eligible to play. Might have transfered and the States governing body hasn't approved the player to play yet. He still could be in uniform but not eligible to play. If he's on the bench the he's bench personnel.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

By your logic then any player from freshman, JV, to Varsity that is in uniform with warm ups on that is sitting in the stands to watch the game is bench personnel? So if they make an unsportsmanlike comment to you you can give a bench T on that player in the stands and pin it on to the coach.

I'm not trying to get in a pi**ing contest with you. Obviously from the way you wrote your last post and how much time you put into it that you have a great deal of knowledge in this game. However if its not rule supported then its not. With your own words you said that the way JR would handle it would be covered by the rules...

Your alternative to handle this situation isn't clearly covered by the rules. It demands a stretch of the rules to justify. Like I said before I think that we ought to be able to penalize the BRAIN FART by the Varsity player. I just can't find and no one has yet provided justifiable rule support for the penalty.

Again confirms why only TEAM MEMBERS should be warming up before their game.

They are not eligible because they are not part of or affiliated with the team.

Is that better?

Have a citation for your interpretation of "affiliated"? :D

You're Right !!
 

You're right. I wasn't there, but according to the junior varsity referee, it was confrontational.

I had a very minor problem with the same varsity head coach before my varsity game that night. Per a NFHS point of emphasis a few years back, we here in Connecticut do not allow either team to "pregame huddle" in the center circle after introductions. This ritual must take place in the semicircle in front of each team's bench. After intoductions, befroe the national anthem, I relalize that the home team is in the center circle. I'm not going to make a big deal out of it before the anthem, so I pass on it, temporaraly. Before the jump ball to start the game, I take the coach caside and quietly explain to him, a first year coach, that his team is not allowed to do that in Connecticut. He says that he didn't know that. This was probably his eighth or ninth home game. What have my colleagues been doing for the past month and a half?

Your colleagues may have been telling him the exact same thing, Billy. Wouldn't be the first time that a coach tried to get away with something and then claimed that no one had ever called him on it before. Happens all the time ...as in "The officials last week let him wear it....".:)

I would contend that players in similar uniforms, warming up with team members, are affiliated with a team. If they retreat to the stands to watch the game, they are no longer affiliated with the team.

That interpretation would be covered under Rule 2 Section 3 Article 1;)

I'm thinking that I'm not going to allow it - though I'd love some rule support to back me up.

1 - they (probably) aren't legally equipped and you're not supposed to be wearing illegal equipment even during warmups.

2 - they aren't part of the team. If varsity players are allowed to warm up with the JV, that's no different than letting fans on the floor to warm up with them.

3 - the liability of allowing non-participants on the floor.

Local Interpretation
 

My local IAABO board interpreter has emailed me and has said that varsity players warming up before a junior varsity game, while officials are on the floor, is illegal. He will expound upon this at Sunday's monthly meeting. If I learn more, like citations, I'll share with the Forum next week.

I think if you go back and read JR's rationale and rule cites, you may see it differently.

Surprisingly enough, not me. I agree with everything you wrote -- at least through page 2 (didn't read the rest!).

I go check with the head coach and the scorer to make sure that the player(s) is actually affiliated with the team. If they say "yes", I issue the "T" and an indirect "T" to the head coach. If they say "no", I get game management to immediately clear them off of the court. I try not to assume anything. Every time I do assume something, it seems to come back and bite me on the azz.

Don't let that stop you from assuming that they're affiliated with that team though.:)

I would suggest maybe reading the entire thread!;)

10-3-4: A player shall not grasp either basket.......dunk or stuff, or attempt to dunk or stuff a dead ball prior to or during the game....... This item applies to all team members.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team.

Look up a list of synonyms for the word affiliated and you may find, among others, "associated," and "in with." If a player is in uniform and participating in warmups with a group of similarly/identically dressed players, I would consider that player to be "associated" with that group, or "in with" that group, and thus, subject to rules and penalties which apply to other members of that group.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If these guys are in uniform and participating in warmups with the team, they sound like team members to me.
__________________

JR:

Please don't tell me are you going to recind a TF? You just can't do it. Just listen to your logic. It just doesn't sound like you. Has the spirit of Old School invaded your body and brain.

MTD, Sr.

Mark, how can I rescind something that I never called in the first place? :confused:

For the umpty-ump time, I am <b>NOT</b> calling a technical foul on any <B>PERSON</B> who is not affiliated with a team. To ascertain whether that person is affiliated with the team, I am going to rely on what the team's head coach and the official scorer tell me. If they tell me that the person is <b>NOT</b> affiliated with the team, I have <b>NO</b> reason <b>NOT</b> to believe them. I also then have <b>NO</b> rules justification to issue technical fouls to anyone unless I try to use R2-8-1 and "T" 'em up as being a fan interfering with the game. I will simply get anyone that is not affiliated with the team immediately removed from the court, same as what is normally done with any fan being out there.

If the head coach/official scorer <b>DO</b> tell me that the person is affiliated with the team, then they will get a "T" if they have dunked the ball, and the head coach will also get an indirect "T". I have rules justification to do that. Those "T"s will not be rescinded.

RIF.

As I said, if anyone wants to <b>assume</b> that a person is affiliated with a team without first checking to find out whether they actually are or not, be my guest. I'm not the one that's going to have to answer any complaint that is put in.