So if you are observing the warmup and see two guys, dressed in uniforms just like everyone else, dunk the ball, you are going to go inquire as to who they are before calling a T? What if those guys do sit on the bench during the game? If one starts screaming about a call, would you let the coach tell you then that he was not affiliated with the team?

I would not <b>assume</b> that a player in uniform who dunks is affiliated with the team whose uniform he's wearing. I would <b>infer</b> it, just as I infer that everyone wearing that uniform is affiliated with that team. You do, too, JR, every time a sub comes on the floor. I would guess, JR, that you don't go to the coach every time a sub comes in the game to ask whether the sub's affiliated with the team. :D

A kid wearing a uniform is a good reason to conclude that the kid is affiliated with the team -- that conclusion would hardly be a baseless assumption. The inference can be mistaken, but it's still highly reliable.

I've been instructed to assess a T whenever anyone in uniform dunks during warm ups. Lately, I've had kids on the floor out of uniform -- some apparently younger than HS age -- and this situation worries me more.

JR, With all due respect, no matter where anyone stands on this situation, I would hope that fear of complaints would not be a criteria for ANY call ANY official would make. It sounds uncourageous to me.

Ignats, for years it's been my job in our local association to answer complaints about our officials. If the official(s) have followed the rules, or if they have exhibited anything close to common sense when dealing with situations, we can then tell the complainers very nicely to piss off. In a situation like the one being discussed, I'm in a spot. If the complaint says that the calling official was told by the head coach, official scorer and home A.D. that the person dunking was not affiliated with a particular team, you tell me how I'm going to justify any official issuing a technical foul without any proof under those circumstances.

You have to answer complaints honestly and without trying to blow smoke up anyone's azz. You also expect and demand that the other side does exactly the same thing when we, as officials, have problems and complaints with them. That's my point, and it's got nothing to do with lack of courage or failing to back up my members either.

Oh? The recommended FED mechanic is for the calling official to immediately notify the <b>team member</b> who dunked the ball that he just got a "T", and then notify the head coach. That's case book play 10.3.4SitC. If the <b>person</b> that you <b>inferred</b> was a team member immediately tells you that he is <b>NOT</b> affiliated with that team and the team's head coach then backs that up, are you still going to <b>infer</b> that he really was a team member and go ahead and issue that "T"?

Not me. I'm just gonna run his butt off the floor, and write up a post-game report about the incident asking for better crowd control in the warm-up. If the player and coach lied, it will come out.

You hit the nail on the head. They are sitting on the bench so the are bench personnel which would also be defined as affiliated with the team.

As I have pointed out numerous times earlier in the thread if they aren't, "team members or bench personnel," then they aren't part of the team. They are just spectators.

If the player dunks, you notify the coach, the coach says he's on the Varsity team not my team, & the Varsity player is not on the bench and is either in the stands or not within the visual confines of the floor then how in the world are you going to assess a "T"?

To say that a player who is dressed like the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team just can't be right. If it were correct then any Freshman, or Varsity player sitting in the stands dressed could be called with a bench "T" then pinned to the coach for unsporting comments/actions.

We all know thats not possible! If thats not possible then how is it possible to assess a Bench "T" to the varsity player who dunked in the JV warm up?

Defined where? The definition of bench personnel does not include the phrase "sitting on the bench."



But to say that a player who is dressed like the JV team and participating in the warmups with the JV team is automatically affiliated with the team, as far as I'm concerned, is a reasonable conclusion.

Question: What happens if the assistant coach dunks during warmups?

Just Another Ref:

It is more than just a reasonable conclusion it is the logical and correct conclusion.

MTD, Sr.

Snaqs:

I would WHACK his tuchus for being a schmuck. :D

Seriously, I believe that this would fall under the conditions of an unsportsmanlike act. But of course you and I were just trying to be funny.

MTD, Sr.

Even if that person, the head coach, the official scorer, the AD, the principal of the school, his parents and the mayor of the town told you that he wasn't affiliated with the team?

Dies that still make your <b>assumption</b> reasonable, logical and correct?

I never trust politicians.

Word.

You posted all the correct rules, but you ignored the plain language and missed the critical part. There are three elements to a team member and a player must meet all three.
1. Bench personnel. This includes both players and non-players.
2. In uniform. (This one is easy.)
3. Eligible to become a player.

The third one is the key to this. Officials do not determine eligibility. A senior is not eligible to play on the JV team. A freshman that has played four quarters that day may not be eligible to play in any more games. (My state says 4 quarters a day; I know others allow 5 quarters.)

Once we learn the player is not eligible (because the coach tells us that), we cannot assess the technical foul.

No, wasn't what I was implying. I was responding to you initial question, "what if they sit on the bench?" If they are on the bench then there would be no doubt that they are bench personnel, affiliated with the team

Case Book 4.32.2 gives the example of a trainer who is sitting @ the end of the bench who isn't specifically pointed out in Rule 4-34 but would be defined as affiliated with the team.

Case Book 10.4.1 Further elaborates on what is considered, "bench" personnel. ...considered to be bench personnel and have violated the rules governing conduct while on the "bench."


So you didn't really address my last point...

Are you saying that as long as they are in the same or nearly the same uniform that they would be automatically affiliated with the team?

The uniform alone means nothing. The fact that they are warming up with the team is quite significant. Combine the two and I consider that to be an affiliation. The other eligibility issues you refer to are not NFHS rules, so they are not my problem. Also, if a player has 5 fouls and is seated on the bench, he is no longer eligible to play, but he is still bench personnel and is subject to restrictions therein.

Fair enough. And I dare say, that you would be able to answer the complaint honestly, whether you would take the same action or not, that since the limitation in the rules contains the words "is not limited to" that the calling official judged that the varsity players were affiliated with the JV team. Logic alone says that particularly when you look at the definition of affiliated:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affiliated

You keep focusing on "affiliated" and I try to get you to see the phrase "eligible to become a player."

Affiliated is included in the definition of bench personnel. This definition brings under the umbrella not only players, but trainers, assistant coaches, scorers, kids not dressed because of injury, etc.

Now...what if any of these non-players, not in uniform dunked? Would you say that is must be a T because they are "affiliated." I doubt it. You would go to the next key words: "in uniform." Since they are not in uniform, you would have game management kick them off the court.

So why do you decide that "eligible to become a player" is none of your business, since the NFHS does not put restrictions on things like seniors playing on the JV team or too many quarters in a single day?

The rule is what it is. It could as easily have been written to be more -- or less -- inclusive. I think it matters that it specifically includes the phrase "eligible to become a player."

OK! So if they are in uniform and take it upon them selves to shoot around with the JV team and one of the Varsity members dunks then leaves the floor your still "whacking"?

What if the varsity players are standing along the endline in uniform and one of them just grabs a ball and dunks it. No other varsity members are warming up. You still whacking and defining them as JV team members?

As far as your point about a DQ'd player not being eligible. Your right 100% but he/she is bench personnel. Read the case plays I mentioned before. Misconduct while ON the bench.

The question of this debate is that these players are never going to sit on the bench, they are never going to be in the book. They are non team members who shouldn't be allowed to warm up with the JV team during the JV's pre game warm up period.

Your only reasoning behind them being affiliated is that they have the same/nearly the same uniform on and that they are warming up with the JV team. I understand that if a player dunks then we know we should have a "T" but once (Like JR pointed out) we notify the team member and he says something like,"I was fooling around. I'm not on the JV team." We can't assess the penalty because he isn't apart of the team.

Lets say you let the Varsity warm up with the JV team. You have been notified of this and think its no big deal. You consider all of the Varsity members as affiliates. Warm ups go on with out any problems. Warm ups are over JV players go to their bench and the Varsity players sit 2 or 3 rows up in the stands.

During the game you hear and see one of the Varsity players make what you define as a unsporting comment. Would you penalize this with a Bench "T" since they warmed up with the JV and are dressed the same? Are you considering them bench personnel ,since by your reasoning ,they are affiliates of the JV team?

Of course you wouldn't. So you have to see where your argument of considering them affiliates doesn't hold up. They can't be team members for part of the time and not all of the time. They are either affiliates or not.

Let me ask something here.
During the first half, you have 2 assistant coaches. Then, midway through the third quarter you notice there is only one sidekick. A little bit later you hear a fan making comments; comments that would earn a coach a T but don't merit response when they come from a fan. You turn and notice it's the missing assistant coach. You going to whack him?

Yeah!! I'm getting him because I believe the assistant to be a team member, bench personnel, team affiliate.

Their either a team member or they aren't. Keep in mind I don't think that you cold ever consider the Varsity members affiliates or team members of the JV team.

Edit...The key to knowing that the assistant is a team member is that he @ one time was on the bench.

Here's where you're going to have trouble with this. JV game prior to the varsity game, varsity coach sits on the bench as an assistant during the first half. He spends the 2nd half with his varsity players. Just before the end of the 4th, the team is standing in the corner waiting for their turn, and you hear him make a comment like I mentioned above. You gonna T him now?

You gonna get him for leaving the bench area, too?

Since he was on the bench and obviously affiliated with the JV team and I notice that he is off the bench making a unsporting comment that REQUIRES a penalty then I'm getting him, DT on him, IDT on the JV coach, then he would either have to get on the bench or he better leave the visual confines of the floor.

Again the KEY here is that he was on the bench which leaves no question that he is affiliated with the team.

Good luck with that.

What if he makes no comments whatsoever, and you notice he's standing in the corner with the varsity guys?

I got nothing unless he says or does something unsporting. More then likely he left or didn't come back out @ halftime of the JV game. If does say/do something unsporting during the remainder of the JV game then I'm getting him and sitting the JV coach.

This being rule supported since he in fact was on the bench in the first half, he is affiliated with the JV team.

Not that its very likely/common for either of these to happen, dunk by varsity in JV game, unsporting comment by VHC back in the corner, but if they do the latter I can handle with a penalty and be confident that I'm backed by the rules. The former on the other hand isn't rule supported, IMO!

This is the most ridicluous post I've ever viewed on this site. 127 replies!!!!!!!!!!! You folks have too much time on your hands, get out there and officiate!!! Discuss the issues that come up during the game.

If he is in a legal uniform, he is eligible to become a player. It doesn't matter if he is visiting from jail. If the coach sends him to the x and I hear a buzzer, he will be beckoned into the game. Therefore, as far as I can see, he is eligible.

It is not specified that a dunk by a non-player is a technical foul. It would be up to the official to judge whether this qualified as an unsporting act.

Because it is none of my business. In the first place, I have seen seniors play in a JV game. For small schools, sometimes all players other than the top 6 or 7 on the team dress for the JV game. And are you telling me that in any shape or form if a JV player also participated in the varsity game, you might inquire about the number of quarters he had played for that
day/week/season/whatever? And you mean to say that if one of the stars in the JV had 4 fouls you would.......oops, wrong thread. Never mind.:D

Gee, a first year official with 30 posts under his belt is telling all of us what we can discuss or not discuss.

Good thing I made a New Year's resolution this year to not tell any of the posters here to piss off.



Piss off.


Damn, happens every year........:rolleyes:

No. I am saying that the coach determines who is eligible, not me. Long before I beckon him into the game, his name will be in the book. That makes him a team member. When the coach tells me that he is not a member of his team, but is a varsity team member, that is OK with me.

:D
Although I am kind of suprised this thread is still being discussed.

Actually, being in the book is not what makes him a team member. Being in the book is not part of the definition of team member. If he gets left off the book, he can still be a team member, and have his name added, at the expense of a technical foul. So, continuing your line of reasoning, coach sends #23 into the game. Scorer announces there is no #23. You announce technical foul. Coach says, "Wait a minute. 23 wasn't even supposed to be dressed out for the JV game. He's not affiliated with this team. Let me send in somebody else." You say, "Fine, coach. He just can't sit on your bench any more."

Eligible ???
 

If they're not in the scorebook (after the ten minute mark), and if they're not going to be put into the scorebook (before the ten minute mark), then, in my opinion, they're not eligible to participate, and they are not part of the junior varsity team.

From my perspective there are only three relevant points to this.

1) Dunking player is warming up with JV team.
2) Dunking player is in team uniform
3) Dunking player Dunked :D

T

Ignats:

I love your thinking.

MTD, Sr.

I would have to agree that you did a whale of a job of summarizing. :)

Disregarding whether dunking player actually <b>is</b> a <b>player</b> of that team.......

Cool. :rolleyes:

irrelvant.

By warming up in uniform, he is, by my judgement, affiliated with the team. That makes him bench personnel.

'Nuff said. You're guessing instead of simply checking to make sure. If you ask, you take judgment out of the call.

The question was asked earlier, and I don't believe it was answered. If these varsity, or whoever they are, players in uniform are seated on the bench during the JV game and one makes a derogatory remark, do you confirm who he is before issuing that T?

JR, I'm not guessing. I am using my judgement...something we all use every day when working our avocation. 2-3-1 gives me that right.

I will be whacking that player Just Another Ref.

So would I. So would most people. The point was to establish whether being seated on the bench with the team means any more than warming up with the team. I see nothing written which indicates that it does.