Way Too Many "Players" Warming Up

[Daryl H. Long]

I have tried for 2 hours to respond but everytime I submitted my reply the forum logged me out. I will find out why later.

There are 2 questions under consideration in this thread.
1. Can Varsity Player warm-up with the JV team? (BillieMac)
2. How do we handle a situation in which the Var player dunks. (Gimlet25id)

The answer to both hinges on who we include as fitting the definition of "Bench Personnel' per 4-34-2.

As for responses I will reply first by mentioning the one who brought my name into the fray. The preacher agrees with MTD in part but not the whole. Just because I agreed with the decision to assess the T does not mean I agree with all the analagies you presented nor the logic behind what kind of T it is. (it is not a player technical nor a team technical as Rainmaker said). Nor are we authorized by rule to make a coach submit a name to his roster like you suggested. Also the time on the pregame clock is of no consequence initially.

The Preacher agrees with JR in part but not the whole. We differ only on the definition of bench personnel as I mentioned above. I believe the Varsity players warming up with JV to be bench personnel and JR says no. If JR is right then he has posted the correct solution of how to handle the matter. Get game management to remove everyone not associated with the team. Now the responsibility for safety of the team is in the hands the proper authorities as deemed by rule (See Officials Manual, pg 6, 1.0.7) And just so we are very clear, just because I disagree with JR on who to include in the open defintion of bench personnel I in no way will impugn his logic in reaching his conclusion. Based on his definition he is consistent within the rules of how to solve the situation. (My reasons to include are below)

Is there a need for the rules committee to clarify who may be on the court for pregame warmups? Yes. Just the different opinions by esteemed members of this forum's "rules committee" in this thread back my affirmation. As some have mentioned I could use the elastic clause of Rule 2-2-3 to make a decision but then as JR said it could come back to haunt me later. So to prohibit that I must consider all the rules I know exist for sure before doing so.

Most of the rules cover what to do during the game. Very few address the pregame.

Rule 2-2-2; Officials Jurisdiction begin.
Rule 2-2-4; Referee's pregame duties.
Rule 3-2; Submission of roster, starters, etc 10 min prior.
Rule 4-5-2; Designates pregame warmup basket for each teat
Rule Rule 6-2-2, 6-3; Give requirements for player location on court prior to jump ball to start the game.
Rule 10-1-1,2; Penalty for violating Rule 3-2
Rule 10-3-4; Pregame dunk and penalty
Rule 10-4; Bench technical fouls.

Other rules to consider:
Rule 2-2-1: Officials shall make decisions for infractions of the rules..
Rule 4-34-4; Definition of team member.
Rule 10-4; Head coach responsible for conduct and behavior of bench personnel.

That said let me give my take of the situation.

Rule 4-5-2 only authorizes individuals of a team to be on the court to practice at its team basket prior to the game. Once I take jurisdiction anyone I see practicing there I consider them to be team members (especially anyone wearing official team uniforms and no they do not all have to be identical, only same color and legal). They are bench personnel. I have authority to define them as bench personnel as the definition given in 4-34-2 says the list specifically mentioned is not all inclusive.

If I should observe anyone warming up at the teams basket violate a rule (in this case a pregame dunk) the as an official I am bound by Rule 2-2-1 to invoke the appropriate penalty (Rule 4-32) I will go to the Head Coach and notify him of the person who dunked and that by rule (10-3-4 penalty) he is also assessed an indirect T and also now must remain seated during the game (10-5 Penalty, Note)

So far the time on the pregame clock is of no consequence. Once it reaches 10:00 I will check the book and if the dunkers' name is there he will receive a direct T which counts for one of 5 leading to disqualification. If his name is not listed I will have the scorer note the dunker was bench personnel, note his name and the time of the pre-game infraction.

Bottom line is I will not allow an infraction of this magnitude to go unpunished. As said before if the rules committee ties our hands so the act cannot be punished then this can only lead to chaos. The Varisty teams will all come out and put on a dunk show until game management is rounded up to remove them from the court. Ignoring these actions compromises the safety of everyone.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

I have tried for 2 hours to respond but everytime I submitted my reply the forum logged me out. I will find out why later.

Too many words. That's why.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Too many words. That's why.

Nothing I can say but AMEN.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Too many words. That's why.

You know where he caught that particular virus. Too many road trips with the Ohio Orator.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Daryl H. Long

Rule 4-5-2 only authorizes individuals of a team to be on the court to practice at its team basket prior to the game. Once I take jurisdiction anyone I see practicing there I consider them to be team members (especially anyone wearing official team uniforms and no they do not all have to be identical, only same color and legal). They are bench personnel. I have authority to define them as bench personnel as the definition given in 4-34-2 says the list specifically mentioned is not all inclusive.

Disagree. You have no rules backing as an official to decide who or who not is affiliated with a team. That decision is not within our domain. It lies with the team, not us. The team provides the team list. Pre-game, we have to ask the head coach. Once the game starts, if they're on the bench we can presume that they're affiliated with the team and then proceed accordingly.

[Ignats75]

First, on the dunking rule. The definition of team personnel includes the listing of "civilians" like Assistant Coaches and trainers. But the definition also uses the words "is NOT limited to". That tells me that Varsity Players Warming up can be considered bench personnel without being in the book. To follow that logic, it would seem to me that a player dunking in pregame, whether in the book or not, IS considered team personnel. Therefore it would result in a direct T on the player as bench personnel, but no need to add him to the roaster, as I had no need to add the trainer to the roster when I assessed him a T last week. (That was a first) It would also mean an indirect T on the HC as the rules mandate. In Ohio, that also means the HC now has the seatbelt for the game as he has lost the privilege to use the coaching box.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Last year, when this scenario came up, I asked how to handle it at our last Association meeting of the year when we discuss unusual situations that have cropped up. I was surprised when the commissioner of one of the conferences I officiate said it was NO T. Just remove the offending player from the court. So much for following the logic that I thought was pretty clear.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

First, on the dunking rule. The definition of team personnel includes the listing of "civilians" like Assistant Coaches and trainers. But the definition also uses the words "is NOT limited to". That tells me that Varsity Players Warming up can be considered bench personnel without being in the book. To follow that logic, it would seem to me that a player dunking in pregame, whether in the book or not, IS considered team personnel.

Yup, and similarly using your logic, someone that jumps out of the stands and dunks the ball can also be considered bench personnel without being in the book. And someone that fell off a turnip truck outside the gym doors, saw the bright lights and decided to come in and get warm, and then said "hey, I can do that." and dunks the ball is also now bench personnel without being in the book, using the same logic.

Good logic.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, and similarly using your logic, someone that jumps out of the stands and dunks the ball can also be considered bench personnel without being in the book. And someone that fell off a turnip truck outside the gym doors, saw the bright lights and decided to come in and get warm, and then said "hey, I can do that." and dunks the ball is also now bench personnel without being in the book, using the same logic.

Good logic.

All you have to add to Ignats' logic to make it clear is individuals participating in warmups "with the coach's permission." Obviously if someone comes out of the stands, grabs a ball, and dunks, you aren't going to issue a T.

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.

And you'd do all that without asking the head coach whether they really are affiliated with his team?

Glad I won't have to answer the complaint when it comes in. I wouldn't have a clue how to justify your logic either under the rules.

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And you'd do all that without asking the head coach whether they really are affiliated with his team?

Glad I won't have to answer the complaint when it comes in. I wouldn't have a clue how to justify your logic either under the rules.

I wouldn't have to answer the complaint. I have no doubt my assignor and the state association would back this interpretation up.

Seriously...from my perspective players from the same school - regardless of whether they are playing in that particular game - are going to be viewed as bench personnel when they are in the middle of organized warmups prior to the game. I have no doubt that will be supported in my association.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by jdw3018

All you have to add to Ignats' logic to make it clear is individuals participating in warm-ups "with the coach's permission." Obviously if someone comes out of the stands, grabs a ball, and dunks, you aren't going to issue a T.

I'm with all that would view them as bench personnel. If they are out there warming up, and the coach hasn't seen fit to remove them or ask them to be removed, they are bench personnel.

What if the Vplayers took it upon themselves to just shoot round with the JV team? The JVHC didn't realize they were there or maybe the JVHC isn't on the floor.

Better yet one of the Varsity players who is dressed in their warm ups comes out of the stands behind the JV's bench picks up the ball and throws it down?

4-34 Art.2 "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).....

I agree with JR that we really don't know who is going to be bench personnel unless the coach informs us or if they are in fact sitting on the BENCH.

Case Book 4.34.2 gives a play where a trainer who is @ the end of the bench gets penalized as bench personnel.

This is a perfect example of someone who is AFFILIATED with a team but isn't specifically listed in the rule.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If the Varsity player is in uniform but not eligible to become a player then he can't be considered a team member. If this player doesn't sit on the bench and the coach confirms that he's neither a player or bench personnel then he is just a spectator of the JV game.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

What if the Vplayers took it upon themselves to just shoot round with the JV team? The JVHC didn't realize they were there or maybe the JVHC isn't on the floor.

Better yet one of the Varsity players who is dressed in their warm ups comes out of the stands behind the JV's bench picks up the ball and throws it down?

4-34 Art.2 "Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and statistician(s).....

I agree with JR that we really don't know who is going to be bench personnel unless the coach informs us or if they are in fact sitting on the BENCH.

Case Book 4.34.2 gives a play where a trainer who is @ the end of the bench gets penalized as bench personnel.

This is a perfect example of someone who is AFFILIATED with a team but isn't specifically listed in the rule.

4-34 Art. 4 ....A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

If the Varsity player is in uniform but not eligible to become a player then he can't be considered a team member. If this player doesn't sit on the bench and the coach confirms that he's neither a player or bench personnel then he is just a spectator of the JV game.

1st: the JV coach cannot absent himself nor play dumb to release himself from his responsibilities per Rule 10.

2nd: Are trainers the only other individuals we could list as bench personnel? NO. The list doesn't stop there.

3rd:All Varsity players are eligible and could become JV players at any time during the night. If the coaches want they can buy the Var player's way into the game with a technical foul for adding a name to the book even if it is with 2 seconds to go in the JV game.

So stop saying they are not eligible just because his name is not in the book nor is he seated on the bench.