A handful of jersey

[tomegun]

I know what some members will say, but I wanted to share this anyway. Tonight I had a NAIA game and after a steal the defender had a handful of jersey momentarily. The offensive player continued down the court and my partner called a foul preventing the player from attempting an uncontested layup. The team was in the double bonus, but didn't get the ball back like they would have if an intentional was called. What would you do? What are the odds of accidentally grabbing a jersey? If not on accident, that means the jersey was grabbed on purpose or...

[johnnyrao]

I don't have a problem with letting it go under the advantage/disadvantage principle. Either way you face a dilemma. If you let it go and the kid is a 90% free throw shooter, you may hear it from the coach that you did not call the intentional and give him the ball back. If you call it and the player misses the free throws and they don't score on the next possession, you may hear it for not allowing his player the uncontested lay-up. I think he made a good call. By the way, was there a coach's reaction to the no call?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tomegun

What would you do?

If I do make the call, it's an intentional foul. Grabbing the shirt of a player getting a break isn't a basketball play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If I do make the call, it's an intentional foul. Grabbing the shirt of a player getting a break isn't a basketball play.

Yep.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If I do make the call, it's an intentional foul. Grabbing the shirt of a player getting a break isn't a basketball play.

Agreed, although I did have a jersey grab at Christmas on an inbounds play I treated as a common foul. There's a trigger that trips that tells an official that a foul is intentional, and this didn't do it for me.

On a break? Absolutely.

I tried explaining the concept of passing on a bump and letting the play develop to a coach this past weekend and surprisingly we had a short discussion on philosophy and how he thought that was more of a college philosophy -- at which point I let him know that I had the bump and if his player couldn't play through it, I had a foul there. Entire conversation was with me as the C tableside and while I had my back to the coach.

Maybe that's why we had only 4 fouls in the first half

[tomegun]

The coach asked why the official didn't let the player go uncontested to the hoop. The grab occured at mid court and the player was free by the time the official blew the whistle.
In this case, I can see letting the play continue because the player would get the opportunity to shoot a layup. However, if the foul is called how can it not be intentional?

Johnnyrao, do you make all your calls based on what you might hear from a coach?

RichMSN, how do you determine a fist full of jersey to be anything other than intentional? If you can legitimately explain that one I will have a whole new outlook on this action.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tomegun

The coach asked why the official didn't let the player go uncontested to the hoop. The grab occured at mid court and the player was free by the time the official blew the whistle.
In this case, I can see letting the play continue because the player would get the opportunity to shoot a layup. However, if the foul is called how can it not be intentional?

Johnnyrao, do you make all your calls based on what you might hear from a coach?

RichMSN, how do you determine a fist full of jersey to be anything other than intentional? If you can legitimately explain that one I will have a whole new outlook on this action.

The jerseys just aren't as form fitting as they used to be, I guess.

I can see what the OP said. The player ends up with a fistful of jersey, but that's the end result, not the behavior that generated the whistle. I had someone holding a cutter on a throw-in and balance was lost (which was what drew my whistle) and what everyone saw as my whistle brought attention to the area was one player grabbing another player's jersey.

Tableside, I had a quick chat with the coach who was OK with the explanation (not like that's terribly important).

[tomegun]

Rich, I don't even understand what you are saying and I think - hold on let me check.

Yep, I'm the OP and this is about grabbing a jersey. Can you explain to me how you can explain a common foul when a player gets their jersey grabbed? How does that happen on accident?

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Rich, I don't even understand what you are saying and I think - hold on let me check.

Yep, I'm the OP and this is about grabbing a jersey. Can you explain to me how you can explain a common foul when a player gets their jersey grabbed? How does that happen on accident?

I agree this is an intentional act on on a breakaway...

Let's pose this question....If this play were to happen where defense commits the following on a player who was working around a teammates screen and the defense is trying to stay with thier man..

A)grabbed a handful of the jersey
B) grabbed a handful of wrist

Are we going to call these intentional or just a common holding foul?

[blindzebra]

It's an either or thing you either let it go or call the IF, the one thing it isn't is a common foul.

It would be nice if we had the option of holding the whistle like we would for an unsporting T, that way the kid gets the lay up and we still get to penalize the IF.

[tomegun]

Coltdoggs, think about every situation that you would call a hold and tell me if a fist full of jersey is one of them. I just don't know how someone would accidentally have a fist full of jersey. Like Blindzebra said, this isn't a common foul. Whether you let the play go as I described it or not is up to you, but it shouldn't be a common foul in my opinion.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Coltdoggs, think about every situation that you would call a hold and tell me if a fist full of jersey is one of them. I just don't know how someone would accidentally have a fist full of jersey. Like Blindzebra said, this isn't a common foul. Whether you let the play go as I described it or not is up to you, but it shouldn't be a common foul in my opinion.

So you are saying you would call IF on my screen play for a fist full o' jersey....

I get what you are saying...I'm replaying the very scenario I posted where a defender had a fist full of the back of a cutters jersey going throught the lane...I saw it from T position and called the hold. I might give this different consideration the next time I see it and your comment has me thinking that way...

don't know how someone would accidentally have a fist full of jersey.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

I agree this is an intentional act on on a breakaway...

Let's pose this question....If this play were to happen where defense commits the following on a player who was working around a teammates screen and the defense is trying to stay with thier man..

A)grabbed a handful of the jersey
B) grabbed a handful of wrist

Are we going to call these intentional or just a common holding foul?

I agree with you (I think).

If the offensive player is closere to the basket than the defensive player, and the defensive player reaches out and grabs the jersey from behind to stop a breakaway, then it's an intentional foul.

If the offensive player is going past the defensive player, and the defensive player "reaches" (as the coaches like to say) instead of playing good defense by moving the feet and in doing so happens to grab the jersey, then it's a common foul.

[johnnyrao]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Johnnyrao, do you make all your calls based on what you might hear from a coach?

No, never. In fact, right now I don't make any calls. Too much dirt and sand where I am and not much hoop action. But I do love to keep up with this site so next year I am prepared. I don't make calls based upon coaches, but I was just pointing out something here. I get your point on it but I still think he's okay in this case not to call the intentional.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with you (I think).

If the offensive player is closere to the basket than the defensive player, and the defensive player reaches out and grabs the jersey from behind to stop a breakaway, then it's an intentional foul.

If the offensive player is going past the defensive player, and the defensive player "reaches" (as the coaches like to say) instead of playing good defense by moving the feet and in doing so happens to grab the jersey, then it's a common foul.

Which is what happened on my inbounds play, essentially.

It's dangerous when we try to paint every play (every jersey grab is intentional) with the same brush.