shot clock for highschool?

[crew]

if you have a membership you can read the topic at officiating.com, but if you dont-------i guess you need to get one.
the topic is should highschool games be played with a shot clock? it comes to an interesting change of the lower level(division) schools plan of attack. i personally would like to see the shot clock come to the highschool level. it would create a more exciting game and more fun for us as well. what do you guys think?

dont get into middle school and junior varsity with this debate-stick to highschool varsity games. i say that because the middle school and JV teams probly wouldnt understand or are not talented enough to deal with it.

[Tim Roden]

I guess the question is, is the level of play high enough so that the teams can set up and make a shot in 35 seconds? I know a lot of states have the shot clock but is it used at all levels or is it just the varsity? I know varsity can play with one but I know the other levels cannot. Most of them don't have any idea how to find the backboard in any time.

I don't want the shot clock as an official. It gives one more advantage to the college officials.

[Oz Referee]

Originally posted by crew
dont get into middle school and junior varsity with this debate-stick to highschool varsity games. i say that because the middle school and JV teams probly wouldnt understand or are not talented enough to deal with it.

I disagree with the last part of this statement. In Australia (at least in NSW), from Under 14's upwards, all representative games are played with a shot clock. They seem to be able to manage - so why can't high school players?

[ChuckElias]

Here in Mass, we use the shot clock for all public high school games. It is generally not used at the middle school level. But we do use it for V, JV, and Frosh. I think that it has worked well. I like it, personally. The only bad part is that sometimes you get a shot clock operator who has no idea what he/she is doing. Then it's a nightmare. But it's been around long enough now so that most of the table personnel at the V level are very good.

We get very few shot clock violations, at least at the varsity level. (Although I did have one tonight in my very ugly college game.) I watch a lot of the JV games, too, b/c they're right before my game usually. Even in the JV games, I don't see a lot of violations. The coaches and players have adapted to it pretty well. Most teams don't wait for 30 seconds to shoot the ball even without the shot clock.

Originally posted by Tim Roden
I don't want the shot clock as an official. It gives one more advantage to the college officials.

Tim, I don't understand the advantage that the college guys have. What do you mean here? Just that they're already used to it? If so, that's not really a very big advantage. It doesn't take long to figure out the shot clock rules. (Although I did get one of them wrong on the test this year ).

Anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

Chuck

[Jeremy40]

i don't like the idea of a high school shot clock, but then when i watched a h.s. game tonite i kinda change my mind. visiting team has a two point lead in the second quarter with over four minutes before the half, and the visiting coach is yelling for..."one shot, hold the ball for one shot"
thats not the way to play basketball, or the way to coach basketball.

[Gochron]

I am for the shot clock. I just did a JV game that went into 3 OT's. And each team who won the tip, stalled for 3 1/2 minutes. These teams played not to lose. We (adults) tend to think that kids won't catch on to things we are trying to teach them. Actually, they are light years ahead and thats why they get bored. If you have a shot clock, the kids will adjust and learn to play with it. There is no limit to what our kids can learn, so let's not limit them.

[dblref]

Originally posted by Gochron
I am for the shot clock. I just did a JV game that went into 3 OT's. And each team who won the tip, stalled for 3 1/2 minutes. These teams played not to lose. We (adults) tend to think that kids won't catch on to things we are trying to teach them. Actually, they are light years ahead and thats why they get bored. If you have a shot clock, the kids will adjust and learn to play with it. There is no limit to what our kids can learn, so let's not limit them.

This same thing happened about 2 weeks ago in a JV game. However, this game went 7, yes 7, O/T's. I was really feeling sorry for the officials when I heard about the game until I found out there was really no action in the O/T period. The team getting the jump ball held the ball at mid-court and the defense never forced the issue. The game was finally declared a tie because they needed to start the varsity game so they could be out of the gym by a certain time.

We officiate a private school league that uses the 30-second clock at F/JV/V level. I kinda like it. The problem I have is not starting a 10-second backcourt count.

[Lotto]

Here in NY, we use NCAA rules (with a few small moditifications) for all girls games. So anything at the high school level has a 30 second shot clock. There are very few shot clock violations---I think I've only had one all year! It works pretty well, I guess.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jeremy40
i don't like the idea of a high school shot clock, but then when i watched a h.s. game tonite i kinda change my mind. visiting team has a two point lead in the second quarter with over four minutes before the half, and the visiting coach is yelling for..."one shot, hold the ball for one shot"
thats not the way to play basketball, or the way to coach basketball.

My HS's coach used to pull this little stunt all the time - he would refuse to play against a zone defense so he'd stall until someone came out for man to man.

[JAdams]

I certainly hope a shot clock never comes to my area of the woods. First of all, most high school teams that I've worked don't have enough skill to consistently work the ball for 30+ seconds before a shot without committing a turnover first. Secondly, it's one more thing for the table to screw up. Thirdly, it's one more thing for us to hassle with and coaches to howl about. No thank you.

[Matt S.]

Here in California, we use the shot clock at all high school levels. I have no problem with it-I think I had 2-3 shot clock violations the whole season-operators at the table are pretty good.

We also go NCAA rules with the girls (no 10 sec. backcourt, only closely guarded on held ball)

[Mark Padgett]

Two points - next time you are just watching a varsity game, see how many times a shot isn't taken within 30 seconds. I think you'll be surprised at how this hardly ever happens.

Second point - we already have a shot clock. It's 8 minutes

OK - here's a third: I would support a shot clock if it eliminated the 10 second backcourt and 5 second closely guarded counts. Actually, I would like to see the end of the 5 second closely guarded no matter what. I don't think it's equitible to reward an entire team because one of their players stood within six feet of someone for 5 seconds.

[paulis]

As stated, here in SoCal we use the shot clock. For girls it is 30 seconds and there is no 10 second backcourt violation nor is there a violation for a player to be dribbling the ball while closely guarded. I have done a couple of games where a team has an excellent ball handler who has dribbled the ball for 25+ seconds. Looks funny but within the rules. Without a shot clock I would not be surprised to see coaches have such a ball handler use even more time.

[ref5678]

Sorry guys i gotta disagree. A shot clock at the high school level is a huge mistake. Kids need to worry about the fundamentals. With only 30-35 seconds some might tend to rush and forget the fundamentals. By the way here in illinois we dont use shot clocks. Save it for the NCAA.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I have been officiating women's college basketball for 28 years now, I have quite a bit of exposure basketball games using a shot clock.

I do not like the shot clock at any level of the game: NFHS/NCAA, FIBA, or NBA/WNBA. Having said that, I could care less if we have a shot clock or not in the NCAA, FIBA, or NBA/WNBA.

The object of the game is to score more opponents than your opponent. You can do that without a shot clock. If could go back to the pre-shot clock days in NCAA Men's and do a study of all boys/girls' H.S. games, and NCAA/NAIA/NJCAA men's games played in the last five years that the NCAA Men's did not have a shot clock, I think that one would see that the percentage of games involving slow down tactics would be so microscopic that one would need an electron microscope to read it (I am sorry about the hyperbole).

The problem is that any time a slow down game occurs is that it is big news because of the fact it is so rare. When I officiate a game being played under NCAA Men's/Women's or FIBA rules I just accept the fact that we are going to be using a shot clock.

I believe that the nature of high school basketball is such that it should not go the shot clock route. I would not want a steady diet of slow down games but they are fun to watch, bit no more that one a year.

My real beef is with the alternating possession rule. I have an intense dislike of it. It may be fine for jr. H.S. age and younger players, but once the age of the players are H.S. freshmen or older, bring back the jump ball for all held balls and all other instances where the jump ball is appropriate.

This afternoon, I had a boys' H.S. freshmen game that went three overtimes, and during the third overtime period there was a controversy regarding the AP arrow. The timer who was operating the AP arrow had correctly set the arrow toward the Visitor's basket at the start of the third overtime period. With 35 sec. left in the game and the Visitors losing by three points, we had a held ball, the first one of the period and I think only the third one the entire game. But guess what, the scorer (provided by the Home school) had the Home team with the arrow. This was the second time in the game, when we had to correct the book and not the actual arrow. I know that AP arrow record in the book is what is correct and not the AP arrow itself but we had definite knowledge that the book was not correct. It did not help that the Visitors did not provide an assitant scorer.

But the best part was, while I got to go home early and watch the Team USA Men's hockey team win, my partner had to continue on to another school and officiate a boys' H.S. varsity game which when one overtime. Better him than me.

Know getting back to the point of this thread: Leave the high school game alone it does not need a shot clock. There are times when a slow down game is the only way to level the playing court. Who can forget that great NCAA tournament game between Georgetown and Princeton?