Free Throw Shooter

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just though of a situation with this I hadn't considered before.

A1 is fouled and will be shooting two shots. After the first shot, B6 (the only sub eligible) subs for B2. During the 2nd shot, A1 shoves B3 in the back trying to get the rebound, causing B3 to roll an ankle and be unable to continue playing for the time being. The clock does not run. Bonus free throws are in effect. B2 is the only sub on the bench who has not fouled out or been injured; but B2 cannot re-enter because the clock has not run since B6 came in.

Any of the four on the floor may now shoot for B.
No eligible sub,

Snaqwells:

Not so fast. The purpose of the rule that does not allow B2 to re-enter the game until the first opportunity to sub after the clock has started is to keep both teams to run players in out of the game during the same stop clocked period: HC-B sends B3 in for B2; HC-A sees this and sends in A6 for A5; then HC-B sends B2 back in the game for B3 which causes HC-A to send A5 back in for A6, ad infinitum (Mark, Jr. who has taken three years of Latin is asleep, he had to carry me Thursday afternoon in a boys' jr. H.S. DH and has a H.S. swim meet Friday night and needs his rest, so I cannot ask him if I have used the correct Latin phrase, but I think everybody gets the idea).

But in your situation, the substitution rules would not prevent Team B to play short-handed because of an injury. The rules require a team to have five players on the court as long as it have five eligible players available, not withstanding a player that is technically eligible but has become injured during the game and cannot return to the game. This rule would trump the subsitution rule. Use the same logic when a TF has occured after the ten minute mark before the start of the game and before the start of the game: The rules state that starter cannot be replaced unless he becomes injured or ill, but the rules also state that any player including an incoming substitute can shoot the TF's free throws. The TF free throws trump the changing of the starting lineup rule.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

This logic works for me, thanks. It's one of those late, lonely nights when I have too much time on my hands to just think about stuff. I think I'll just call it a night.

[Johnny Ringo]

So, there is no circumstance where a player on the floor can shoot even if there are enough subs? I thought this was on the NFHS test a few years back.

[Johnny Ringo]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

So, there is no circumstance where a player on the floor can shoot even if there are enough subs? I thought this was on the NFHS test a few years back.

Am I correct that the above (underlined) quote is correct?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Am I correct that the above (underlined) quote is correct?

If there is an eligible sub, he/she is the only person who can shoot for the injured player.

The only time any player on the court may shoot free throws is for a technical foul or, as noted in this thread, when there isn't an eligible sub for an injured player.

[Johnny Ringo]

Can a player not on the floor (one of the five) shoot free throws that resulted in a technical foul. Can he sub in at the time of thechnical? is that permissable?

[jdw3018]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Can a player not on the floor (one of the five) shoot free throws that resulted in a technical foul. Can he sub in at the time of thechnical? is that permissable?

Yes.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But in your situation, the substitution rules would not prevent Team B to play short-handed because of an injury. The rules require a team to have five players on the court as long as it have five eligible players available, not withstanding a player that is technically eligible but has become injured during the game and cannot return to the game. This rule would trump the subsitution rule. Use the same logic when a TF has occured after the ten minute mark before the start of the game and before the start of the game: The rules state that starter cannot be replaced unless he becomes injured or ill, but the rules also state that any player including an incoming substitute can shoot the TF's free throws. The TF free throws trump the changing of the starting lineup rule.

There's nothing that says one rule "trumps" the other, Mark.

I have no idea what Mary will say but the situation is simply not covered in the rule book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Tony:

Sure it does. Look at the analogy I used in my Post #4 with regard to allowing a team to change its starting lineup so that a substitute can shoot TF free throws which were the result of a TF that occurred during the officials' jurisdiction when there is less than ten minutes before the start of the game. A team is charged with a TF when it changes its starting lineup after the ten minute mark before the start of the game unless it is for an injury or illness, but any player, including an incoming substitute, can shoot TF free throws. A team has always been allowed to "change" its starting lineup without penalty to allow an incoming substitute to shoot the free throws even though the rules stated that a team could not change its starting lineup without incurring a TF for the making the change. That is a case where one rule trumps the other.

Are you going to tell Team B that it must play with only four players because B2 cannot re-enter the game until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started? B2 is an eligible substitute and his re-entry does not violate the reason for the existence of the re-entry rule as written in the rules.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Tony:

Sure it does. Look at the analogy I used in my Post #4 with regard to allowing a team to change its starting lineup so that a substitute can shoot TF free throws which were the result of a TF that occurred during the officials' jurisdiction when there is less than ten minutes before the start of the game. A team is charged with a TF when it changes its starting lineup after the ten minute mark before the start of the game unless it is for an injury or illness, but any player, including an incoming substitute, can shoot TF free throws. A team has always been allowed to "change" its starting lineup without penalty to allow an incoming substitute to shoot the free throws even though the rules stated that a team could not change its starting lineup without incurring a TF for the making the change. That is a case where one rule trumps the other.

Are you going to tell Team B that it must play with only four players because B2 cannot re-enter the game until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started? B2 is an eligible substitute and his re-entry does not violate the reason for the existence of the re-entry rule as written in the rules.

MTD, Sr.

I don't go back as far as you, so I can't say what used to be in the rules and what didn't. But I can say that your example is not currently a case of one rule trumping another. It is a case of there being a specific exception which permits this action. If that exception were not in there, I would make one of the five named starters attempt the technical foul FTs or assess a T to the team for changing it's starting lineup in order to get someone else in there to shoot them.

Why do you keep saying that B2 is an eligible substitute when the RULES clearly state that he is NOT?
Team B must temporarily play with four just as in situation 5. Too bad for them. That's the way it goes when you show up for a game with very few team members. Just ask the Arizona State women's team.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I have no idea what Mary will say but the situation is simply not covered in the rule book.

Agree.