Free Throw Shooter

[Johnny Ringo]

Can any player (on the floor) shoot the free throws when a hurt player has to leave the game or does it have to be the substitue?

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Can any player (on the floor) shoot the free throws when a hurt player has to leave the game or does it have to be the substitue?

SUBSTITUE

[Adam]

Just though of a situation with this I hadn't considered before.

A1 is fouled and will be shooting two shots. After the first shot, B6 (the only sub eligible) subs for B2. During the 2nd shot, A1 shoves B3 in the back trying to get the rebound, causing B3 to roll an ankle and be unable to continue playing for the time being. The clock does not run. Bonus free throws are in effect. B2 is the only sub on the bench who has not fouled out or been injured; but B2 cannot re-enter because the clock has not run since B6 came in.

Any of the four on the floor may now shoot for B.
No eligible sub,

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just though of a situation with this I hadn't considered before.

A1 is fouled and will be shooting two shots. After the first shot, B6 (the only sub eligible) subs for B2. During the 2nd shot, A1 shoves B3 in the back trying to get the rebound, causing B3 to roll an ankle and be unable to continue playing for the time being. The clock does not run. Bonus free throws are in effect. B2 is the only sub on the bench who has not fouled out or been injured; but B2 cannot re-enter because the clock has not run since B6 came in.

Any of the four on the floor may now shoot for B.
No eligible sub,

Snaqwells:

Not so fast. The purpose of the rule that does not allow B2 to re-enter the game until the first opportunity to sub after the clock has started is to keep both teams to run players in out of the game during the same stop clocked period: HC-B sends B3 in for B2; HC-A sees this and sends in A6 for A5; then HC-B sends B2 back in the game for B3 which causes HC-A to send A5 back in for A6, ad infinitum (Mark, Jr. who has taken three years of Latin is asleep, he had to carry me Thursday afternoon in a boys' jr. H.S. DH and has a H.S. swim meet Friday night and needs his rest, so I cannot ask him if I have used the correct Latin phrase, but I think everybody gets the idea).

But in your situation, the substitution rules would not prevent Team B to play short-handed because of an injury. The rules require a team to have five players on the court as long as it have five eligible players available, not withstanding a player that is technically eligible but has become injured during the game and cannot return to the game. This rule would trump the subsitution rule. Use the same logic when a TF has occured after the ten minute mark before the start of the game and before the start of the game: The rules state that starter cannot be replaced unless he becomes injured or ill, but the rules also state that any player including an incoming substitute can shoot the TF's free throws. The TF free throws trump the changing of the starting lineup rule.

MTD, Sr.

[Adam]

This logic works for me, thanks. It's one of those late, lonely nights when I have too much time on my hands to just think about stuff. I think I'll just call it a night.

[Johnny Ringo]

So, there is no circumstance where a player on the floor can shoot even if there are enough subs? I thought this was on the NFHS test a few years back.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

But in your situation, the substitution rules would not prevent Team B to play short-handed because of an injury. The rules require a team to have five players on the court as long as it have five eligible players available, not withstanding a player that is technically eligible but has become injured during the game and cannot return to the game. This rule would trump the subsitution rule. Use the same logic when a TF has occured after the ten minute mark before the start of the game and before the start of the game: The rules state that starter cannot be replaced unless he becomes injured or ill, but the rules also state that any player including an incoming substitute can shoot the TF's free throws. The TF free throws trump the changing of the starting lineup rule.

There's nothing that says one rule "trumps" the other, Mark.

I have no idea what Mary will say but the situation is simply not covered in the rule book.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Tony:

Sure it does. Look at the analogy I used in my Post #4 with regard to allowing a team to change its starting lineup so that a substitute can shoot TF free throws which were the result of a TF that occurred during the officials' jurisdiction when there is less than ten minutes before the start of the game. A team is charged with a TF when it changes its starting lineup after the ten minute mark before the start of the game unless it is for an injury or illness, but any player, including an incoming substitute, can shoot TF free throws. A team has always been allowed to "change" its starting lineup without penalty to allow an incoming substitute to shoot the free throws even though the rules stated that a team could not change its starting lineup without incurring a TF for the making the change. That is a case where one rule trumps the other.

Are you going to tell Team B that it must play with only four players because B2 cannot re-enter the game until the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has started? B2 is an eligible substitute and his re-entry does not violate the reason for the existence of the re-entry rule as written in the rules.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I have no idea what Mary will say but the situation is simply not covered in the rule book.

Agree.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Just though of a situation with this I hadn't considered before.

A1 is fouled and will be shooting two shots. After the first shot, B6 (the only sub eligible) subs for B2. During the 2nd shot, A1 shoves B3 in the back trying to get the rebound, causing B3 to roll an ankle and be unable to continue playing for the time being. The clock does not run. Bonus free throws are in effect. B2 is the only sub on the bench who has not fouled out or been injured; but B2 cannot re-enter because the clock has not run since B6 came in.

Any of the four on the floor may now shoot for B.
No eligible sub,

I agree with that and disagree with what MTD wrote below.

There was an NFHS interp a few years ago that dealt with a player having to be removed due to the substitution rules and the team continuing with four for a brief time. The substitution rules do not get set aside unless there is an error.

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I agree with that and disagree with what MTD wrote below.

There was an NFHS interp a few years ago that dealt with a player having to be removed due to the substitution rules and the team continuing with four for a brief time. The substitution rules do not get set aside unless there is an error.

2002-03 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5: Team A is playing with five players, but has no remaining substitutes available when one of the players has an asthma attack. The coach is beckoned onto the floor. RULING: The player must leave the game unless a time-out is requested and granted to Team A with the player being ready to resume by the end of the time-out. The team may continue with fewer than five players if there are no substitutes available. An injured/ill player may return to the game after recovery. (3-3-5)

NevadaRef:

I agree with you concerning 2002-03 NFHS Rules Interpretations SITUATION 5, but in Snaqwells play, there is an eligible substitute, and that eligible substitute is B2. That is the play that my post is addressing. Yes, SITUATION can be applied to Snaqwells play, but if the injured player cannot play even after the charged timeout, then I would stand by my decision to let B2 return to the game even though the clock had not been started since the time he was removed from the game. I admit that Snaqwells play is very remote and I have never had such a situation occur (knock on my head right now) in my 37 years of officiating, but you never know.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef:

I agree with you concerning 2002-03 NFHS Rules Interpretations SITUATION 5, but in Snaqwells play, there is an eligible substitute, and that eligible substitute is B2. That is the play that my post is addressing.

According to my understanding of the rules B2 is not an eligible substitute at that time.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Yes, SITUATION can be applied to Snaqwells play, but if the injured player cannot play even after the charged timeout, then I would stand by my decision to let B2 return to the game even though the clock had not been started since the time he was removed from the game. I admit that Snaqwells play is very remote and I have never had such a situation occur (knock on my head right now) in my 37 years of officiating, but you never know.

MTD, Sr.

That's because you're getting soft in your old age.

(Said in the nicest possible way, of course. )

[Adam]

Unless there is no substitute available.

[Texref]

The NCAA rule book leaves no room for discussion on the situation.

Rule 3-1-2: The team may continue to play with fewer than five players when all other squad members are not eligible or able to play

Rule 3-4-14: A player who has been withdrawn or replaced by a substitute may reenter the game at the next opportunity to substitute, provided that the game clock has been properly started after the withdrawal or replacement.

Rule 4-51: Player: A player is one of five or fewer members of a team's personnel who is legally on the playing court to participate

Rule 4-65: Team Member: A team member is a member of the bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Based on those rulings, if this play were to happen in a college game, one of the four remaining players on the floor would have to shoot the free throws and they would play with 4 until the next opportunity to sub in the 5th player.

I don't know if the High School ruling is the same as I'm not sure of the language in the rule book.