Tales from a 1st Year: Dumbass

[Junker]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Girls Freshman game. I'm lead. Players A1 and B1 fighting for a rebound. They bring it down. I blow Held Ball. Just after whistle B1 pushes A1 pretty hard (coming out of their death grip). I blow whistle a 2nd time for push on B1.

I go to my veteran partner. "Partner I have a jump ball and then a push on B1. He kind of scratches his whiskers like I had asked him who played 3rd base for the '67 Detroit Tigers.

We end up reversing the arrow and have a personal foul on B1. Ball given to Team A for inbounds.

I know in the back of my head that I've screwed this up. Of course no one in the gym for this freshman girls game knows any better. It takes about 2 minutes for me to realize what we should have done.

At least I went to my partner and we caucused (unlike another recent play I kicked).

I hope I don't have to kick each call in a "new" situation once in order to learn them enough to respond properly immediately in the future.

So what do you think you should have done for the sake of discussion?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Junker

So what do you think you should have done for the sake of discussion?

.... for the held ball, the ball is dead. During a dead ball, contact between players is either to be ignored, or .... I believe.... that we would have had an intentional technical foul on B1.

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Now, that is what I realized after two minutes, but before putting my a$$ on the line here I did verify.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

.... for the held ball, the ball is dead. During a dead ball, contact between players is either to be ignored, or .... I believe.... that we would have had an intentional technical foul on B1.

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Now, that is what I realized after two minutes, but before putting my a$$ on the line here I did verify.

The intentional T wipes out the held ball under HS & ncaa mens rules so don't touch the arrow. Not sure what ncaa w do, I believe it's POI. If that's the case then you shoot the FTs then go to the held ball throw-in. In any case do not reverse the arrow until the throw-in is completed.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

.... for the held ball, the ball is dead. During a dead ball, contact between players is either to be ignored, or .... I believe.... that we would have had an intentional technical foul on B1.

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Now, that is what I realized after two minutes, but before putting my a$$ on the line here I did verify.

The contact is ignored unless it's intentional or flagrant, and then it's an IT or FT foul.

The arrow isn't reversed until the AP throw-in ends. Since there won't be an AP throw-in, the arrow stays the same.

As I read the play, I'd go with the held ball and just admonish B1 to stop play when the whistle blows (but you were there and I wasn't and only you can know whether the contact meets the definition of intentional).

I agree that Don Wert is the correct answer to the real question posed.

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

The contact is ignored unless it's intentional or flagrant, and then it's an IT or FT foul.

The arrow isn't reversed until the AP throw-in ends. Since there won't be an AP throw-in, the arrow stays the same.

As I read the play, I'd go with the held ball and just admonish B1 to stop play when the whistle blows (but you were there and I wasn't and only you can know whether the contact meets the definition of intentional).

I agree that Don Wert is the correct answer to the real question posed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

.... for the held ball, the ball is dead. During a dead ball, contact between players is either to be ignored, or .... I believe.... that we would have had an intentional technical foul on B1.

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Are you sure that the arrow should be reversed?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you sure that the arrow should be reversed?

I am now completely sure of whether to reverse arrow!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

I am now completely sure of whether to reverse arrow!

Far better to make mistakes on here than on the court!

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

.... for the held ball, the ball is dead. During a dead ball, contact between players is either to be ignored, or .... I believe.... that we would have had an intentional technical foul on B1.

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Now, that is what I realized after two minutes, but before putting my a$$ on the line here I did verify.

Well now remember, I'm just a dumb old coach...

But...

If you called the T (I think the only type of foul possible during a dead ball, right), why would you change the arrow since it was never used to determine possession?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Well now remember, I'm just a dumb old coach...

But...

If you called the T (I think the only type of foul possible during a dead ball, right), why would you change the arrow since it was never used to determine possession?

[cmckenna]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Now, that is what I realized after two minutes, but before putting my a$$ on the line here I did verify.

The only thing I don't think is right here is the changing of the arrow. Although you called a held ball, you never used the AP procedure so the arrow would not change. Remember, the arrow only changes once the AP throw-in is completed or the throwing in team violates.

I do agree though that the push was dead ball contact and either had to be considered incidental or you have to go with the T.

edited to add: WOW 4 posts all saying the same thing at the same time..... And they say we refs can't agree on things...

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by cmckenna

The only thing I don't think is right here is the changing of the arrow. Although you called a held ball, you never used the AP procedure so the arrow would not change. Remember, the arrow only changes once the AP throw-in is completed or the throwing in team violates.

I do agree though that the push was dead ball contact and either had to be considered incidental or you have to go with the T.

edited to add: WOW 4 posts all saying the same thing at the same time..... And they say we refs can't agree on things...

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by ca_rumperee

.... for the held ball, the ball is dead. During a dead ball, contact between players is either to be ignored, or .... I believe.... that we would have had an intentional technical foul on B1.

Reverse arrow for held ball.
Team A shoots 2 with lane cleared.
Team A ball at the division line.

Now, that is what I realized after two minutes, but before putting my a$$ on the line here I did verify.

Dan's right. Here's the correct NFHS procedure. Since there is no AP throw-in there is no reason to reverse the arrow.

[Nevadaref]

Wow, multiple responses in the few minutes that it took me to craft a post!

It kind of looks like we're all jumping on the poor guy, but I'm sure that's not the case. Sometimes the posts just come fast and furious.

So CA, how does that @ss which you put on the line feel after the beating it just took?

[ca_rumperee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Wow, multiple responses in the few minutes that it took me to craft a post!

It kind of looks like we're all jumping on the poor guy, but I'm sure that's not the case. Sometimes the posts just come fast and furious.

So CA, how does that @ss which you put on the line feel after the beating it just took?

"Well smack my bare a$$ and call me Judy!"