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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:17pm
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Goal Tending

Rule 4.22

"Goaltending occurs when a player touches the ball during a field-goal try or tap while it is in its downward flight entirely above the basket ring level and has the possibility of entering the basket in flight, or an opponent of the free thrower touches the ball outside the cylinder during a free-throw attempt."

Is it ruled goal tending if the ball is blocked after it has contacted the backboard, but is still on its way up? I have seen this called, and passed on within the last few weeks. The official that called it swore up and down that it is goal tending and he was going to get back to all of us when he found it (haven't heard back yet). The official who didn't call it simply pointed to 4.22, saying it does not state anything about the backboard.

What is the NFHS interpretation?
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:19pm
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In the case you stated, it would not be goal tending unless the ball was struck by the defender when the ball was above/in the cylinder
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satellite_6
Rule 4.22

"Goaltending occurs when a player touches the ball during a field-goal try or tap while it is in its downward flight entirely above the basket ring level and has the possibility of entering the basket in flight, or an opponent of the free thrower touches the ball outside the cylinder during a free-throw attempt."

Is it ruled goal tending if the ball is blocked after it has contacted the backboard, but is still on its way up? I have seen this called, and passed on within the last few weeks. The official that called it swore up and down that it is goal tending and he was going to get back to all of us when he found it (haven't heard back yet). The official who didn't call it simply pointed to 4.22, saying it does not state anything about the backboard.

What is the NFHS interpretation?
No it isn't goaltending if it is still on the way up and not above the cylinder...but this is a hell of a distinction to try to make...if you think of a layup, unless the player is pretty short and shooting it straight up the backboard (in which case he/she is probably not playing in a game where goaltending is a concern) the natural flight of the ball is usually downward after it hits the board...this CAN happen and I have actually had a no call on it before too, but it is tough to do...
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS 20
In the case you stated, it would not be goal tending unless the ball was struck by the defender when the ball was above/in the cylinder
Still not goal tending: you're describing BI.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
Still not goal tending: you're describing BI.
Actually I think you and I both are slightly off on the definition, it is goaltending in the OP as long as the ball is in a downward path and NOT above the cylinder...it is BI, however, if it is above the cylinder...unless you were trying to say that there is no way it was in its downward path and not above the cylinder since it was a layup..I can buy that...either way we penalize the same! Why the two definitions in the first place?
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Actually I think you and I both are slightly off on the definition, it is goaltending in the OP as long as the ball is in a downward path and NOT above the cylinder...it is BI, however, if it is above the cylinder...unless you were trying to say that there is no way it was in its downward path and not above the cylinder since it was a layup..I can buy that...either way we penalize the same! Why the two definitions in the first place?
One is a technical if committed during a free throw, and the other isn't.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
No it isn't goaltending if it is still on the way up and not above the cylinder...but this is a hell of a distinction to try to make...if you think of a layup, unless the player is pretty short and shooting it straight up the backboard (in which case he/she is probably not playing in a game where goaltending is a concern) the natural flight of the ball is usually downward after it hits the board...this CAN happen and I have actually had a no call on it before too, but it is tough to do...
I disagree here. I think after anyone shoots a layup, the first direction the ball goes is up, if only for a slight moment. The closer to the ground the hand is upon release will determine how long the ball is on it's upward flight.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 03:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjchamp
I disagree here. I think after anyone shoots a layup, the first direction the ball goes is up, if only for a slight moment. The closer to the ground the hand is upon release will determine how long the ball is on it's upward flight.
Agree with your last point there which is why I referenced the shorter players...and I also agree that it does go up (wasn't clear in my prior post) which is why I have called it myself, all I am saying is that it is for such a brief instant that it still has an upward flight if it does have one (thinking hs varsity game) that 9X out of 10 in my experience it is going to be a GT/BI if someone touches a ball after it has hit the backboard...not saying it doesn't happen, but more than likely you have a violation...
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 03:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Agree with your last point there which is why I referenced the shorter players...and I also agree that it does go up (wasn't clear in my prior post) which is why I have called it myself, all I am saying is that it is for such a brief instant that it still has an upward flight if it does have one (thinking hs varsity game) that 9X out of 10 in my experience it is going to be a GT/BI if someone touches a ball after it has hit the backboard...not saying it doesn't happen, but more than likely you have a violation...

I've had this play dozens of times and most times it isn't a violation.

Most layups start just above the pad...WHICH IS BELOW RING LEVEL most blocks occur right after release.

Smart officials take the backboard out of the equation...and should since it isn't part of the rule...and judge it based on the criteria for GT, downward flight, above ring level, with a chance to go in or BI for contacting the ball on or above the cylinder.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 03:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
I've had this play dozens of times and most times it isn't a violation.

Most layups start just above the pad...WHICH IS BELOW RING LEVEL most blocks occur right after release.

Smart officials take the backboard out of the equation...and should since it isn't part of the rule...and judge it based on the criteria for GT, downward flight, above ring level, with a chance to go in or BI for contacting the ball on or above the cylinder.
Agreed as far as taking the backboard out of the equation, but I have seen it called a lot more times than not...honestly personally I have probably had it less than ten times in my own games and can only remember once when I didn't call it...

Most layups start just above the pad???? I disagree with this, unless we are talking from the point guard? The release may be from just above the pad, but the contact with the backboard happens more like at ring level or above...and that is what we are talking about contact after the ball has contacted the backboard.....
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 03:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
Agreed as far as taking the backboard out of the equation, but I have seen it called a lot more times than not...honestly personally I have probably had it less than ten times in my own games and can only remember once when I didn't call it...

Most layups start just above the pad???? I disagree with this, unless we are talking from the point guard? The release may be from just above the pad, but the contact with the backboard happens more like at ring level or above...and that is what we are talking about contact after the ball has contacted the backboard.....
You don't understand the rule...period.

The ball has to be entirely above the ring level, on it's downward flight, with a chance to go in.

You obviously don't want to hear the, "It hit the backboard, that's goal tending," refrain from the coaches and fans, so you call it...wrong if you call 9 out of 10 a violation.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 04:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blindzebra
You don't understand the rule...period.

The ball has to be entirely above the ring level, on it's downward flight, with a chance to go in.

You obviously don't want to hear the, "It hit the backboard, that's goal tending," refrain from the coaches and fans, so you call it...wrong if you call 9 out of 10 a violation.
is right. i do understand the rule, i just disagree about where a layup first contacts the backboard...unless the munckins are playing a game in oz, most layups don't contact the backboard just above the pad...the ball contacts the backboard, goes up for an instant and then begins a downward flight.....once it begins that downward flight (regardless if it is in the cylinder) it is a goaltend - bi if it is within the cylinder..if it is a layup above rim level i assume it has a chance to go in...what did I miss? had one two weeks ago from C that the T agreed with 100%, but i suppose he was just worried about the fans and coaches or didn't understand the rule either..
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 04:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbilla
is right. i do understand the rule, i just disagree about where a layup first contacts the backboard...unless the munckins are playing a game in oz, most layups don't contact the backboard just above the pad...the ball contacts the backboard, goes up for an instant and then begins a downward flight.....once it begins that downward flight (regardless if it is in the cylinder) it is a goaltend - bi if it is within the cylinder..if it is a layup above rim level i assume it has a chance to go in...what did I miss? had one two weeks ago from C that the T agreed with 100%, but i suppose he was just worried about the fans and coaches or didn't understand the rule either..

You've seen it 10 times and called a violation 9 out of 10.

I've seen it dozens of times and have seen and called a handful of violations.

Your numbers are waaay off which tells me one thing.
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 04:25pm
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Could be...or could just be a numbers game? Maybe you just fit into Nevada's awesome official mold and are able to discern the slightest misdirection of the ball in only 100ths of a second...I guess I'm not there yet...and I guess there are no awesome officials in this area either b/c I see this called FAR more often than I see it passed on..I may need to go see JRut at Loyola this weekend
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Old Fri Jan 11, 2008, 04:25pm
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Keep in mind that in most of the cases I've seen it, you have ball out of the shooters hand, ball off the BB, block in a bang-bang-bang situation.

Rarely have I seen it ball, BB, pause, block which is what would be needed for the ball to start a downward flight.
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