Partner tosses coach in first minute of game!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

Well I think we can agree that this coach would need to be penalized. We will just have to agree to dis agree on how to penalize the comment.

Would my Supervisor ( I do work college basketball) be upset with me if I gave a Bench Technical in reference to the OP? No! In fact I agree that if I didn't I could get reprimanded for not doing it. Would my Supervisor dis agree with a Flagrant "T" on a comment to a player like the OP...maybe, maybe not. Either way I'm still penalizing the coach and turning it over to the supervisor.

I know for sure with the Bench Technical I'm covered by the rules. The Flagrant "T" I'm not so sure. If I'm tossing player/coach I'm making damn sure that I'm rule supported. This was the main reason for my reference to losing games by kicking a rule administration. (Rule administration being extremely important @ the NCAA level) Has nothing to do if the supervisor would back me or not.

BTW...for the last couple of years the NCAA said on more than one occasion that profanity by coaches in huddles is not acceptable because of television microphones.

When has the NCAA said this? Was it in a bulletin, regional clinic, or the rule book? I haven't seen the bulletin, I have been to the last few regional clinics& I can't find the reference in the rule book.

I can however see game management reminding the teams if it is a TV game. Come to think of it, you really don't see camera's inside the huddle to often, primarily because they are going to commercial to pay the bills. In fact most feeds are on a delay which helps prevent such things.

Let me reemphasize that this IMHO!!!!

Gimlet:

I am a bald old geezer who has been officiating boys'/girls' H.S. for 37 years, women's college for 34 years, and men's college for 15 years; that means I was officiating H.S. and college basketball before you were even a gleam in your father's eye and I am a generation of officials that believe that has not succumb to the philosophy of chest thumping, in your face, get out of my house type of sportsmanship that has become the norm in sports today. The huddle conduct that I mentioned was addressed in a bulletin a number of years ago. It seems that the presidents of NCAA Div. I schools really "care" about how their school are perceived by the public. Div. I college coaches are extremely well compensated professionals and they should conduct themselves accordingly, and telling a player to "beat the hell" out of an opposing player is not appropriate conduct of an extremely well compensated professional to conduct himself.

Personally, I cannot believe a Div. I coach would ever make such a comment within earshot of an official. But if he did he should be held to the same high standard that a 7th grade coach: ejection. I do not believe this a “lets agree to disagree” discussion. As long as we take the position that boys will be boys, then game conduct will only get worse. If you are afraid that you will lose college games if you toss a college coach, then get out of the game. Any supervisor that would not support you is not worth working for because he will sell you done the river any chance he gets because he has no scruples.

MTD, Sr.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Gimlet:

I am a bald old geezer who has been officiating boys'/girls' H.S. for 37 years, women's college for 34 years, and men's college for 15 years; that means I was officiating H.S. and college basketball before you were even a gleam in your father's eye and I am a generation of officials that believe that has not succumb to the philosophy of chest thumping, in your face, get out of my house type of sportsmanship that has become the norm in sports today. The huddle conduct that I mentioned was addressed in a bulletin a number of years ago. It seems that the presidents of NCAA Div. I schools really "care" about how their school are perceived by the public. Div. I college coaches are extremely well compensated professionals and they should conduct themselves accordingly, and telling a player to "beat the hell" out of an opposing player is not appropriate conduct of an extremely well compensated professional to conduct himself.


Personally, I cannot believe a Div. I coach would ever make such a comment within earshot of an official. But if he did he should be held to the same high standard that a 7th grade coach: ejection. I do not believe this a “lets agree to disagree” discussion. As long as we take the position that boys will be boys, then game conduct will only get worse. If you are afraid that you will lose college games if you toss a college coach, then get out of the game. Any supervisor that would not support you is not worth working for because he will sell you done the river any chance he gets because he has no scruples.

MTD, Sr.

Certainly I agree with you that I doubt we would ever hear such a statement now.

I work DI (W's) and have ran this play by half dozen of my counterparts & a couple of my counterparts that work DI (M's)They all agreed that you would have to do something, but a Flagrant "T" would never be an option unless, "We have a live ball, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T."

I worked a DI game this afternoon where Coach calls a T/O and proceeds to ask his team what the F*** are you doing? That's nothing and will never be nothing. If there was a bulletin that covered this, I haven't seen it or heard about it. One thing is for sure that it has been forgotten.

I can see why it would seem that the right thing to do is to toss the coach. I'm just saying that I (IMHO) don't think that action would be supported by the rules. If I administer a rule wrong then I'm losing games...PERIOD!! As I should! I would absolutely have no problem sending a coach if the coach happened to do something that the rules say he/she should be ejected.

You have been around a lot longer then I have and I believe you would handle this just the way you said. Maybe thats "old school" maybe its not. I'm going to close by saying if you can do it and get by with it, GREAT!!! Since I'm not from the "old school," I'm @ most going with a Direct "T" on the coach..maybe...depending on the context of his/her statement.

This has nothing to do with the supervisor backing me or not. If I kick a rule , I kicked the rule not the supervisor. The supervisor can't protect me if I kicked a rule or in this case toss a coach for a comment that he/she made to HIS/HER player . If you kick a rule @ the DI level you WILL LOSE GAMES!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I work DI (W's) and have ran this play by half dozen of my counterparts & a couple of my counterparts that work DI (M's)They all agreed that you would have to do something, but a Flagrant "T" would never be an option unless, "We have a live ball, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T."

That just might be the most ridiculous reasoning that I have ever read on this forum. You and your "counterparts" are saying it's a flagrant technical foul to commit a certain act at CERTAIN times, but it's NOT a flagrant technical foul to commit the exact SAME act at ALL times. Are you and your "counterparts" serious?

You and your "counterparts" are just looking for excuses NOT to call the flagrant technical foul imo. And you're all doing a great job finding those excuses too. That's very telling, also imo.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

That just might be the most ridiculous reasoning that I have ever read on this forum. You and your "counterparts" are saying it's a flagrant technical foul to commit a certain act at CERTAIN times, but it's NOT a flagrant technical foul to commit the exact SAME act at ALL times. Are you and your "counterparts" serious?

You and your "counterparts" are just looking for excuses NOT to call the flagrant technical foul imo. And you're all doing a great job finding those excuses too. That's very telling, also imo.

Well JR since you obviously want to dis agree on everything I say find me the rule in the NCAA RB that would allow you to toss this coach for a comment to his player that didn't initiate a fight.

If you would actually take the time to comprehend what I wrote then you would understand what I said. The difference in penalizing the comment is if the player actually does punch a kid. If during a T/O you hear the coach make the comment then how can you by rule toss him if the player hasn't done anything that would be defined as a fight. ( AGAIN BY RULE)

In this case I'm not saying that you play on as if nothing happened. You, depending on the context of the statement, would address what was said to the coach and player. Regardless of what you do your going to make sure that your partners know what is going on. If you give the Bench "T" then that will also require a phone call to your supervisor.

Its a completely different story if the ball was live, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T." This is penalized as fighting since the coach initiated the fight and the player hit the kid.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

1) Well JR since you obviously want to disagree on everything I say find me the rule in the NCAA RB that would allow you to toss this coach for a comment to his player that didn't initiate a fight.

Its a completely different story if the ball was live, coach tells his player to hit another player." If he/she does, player & coach is gone, Flagrant "T." This is penalized as fighting since the coach initiated the fight and the player hit the kid.

1) NCAA rule 4-29-3(f)2--"A flagrant non-contact technical foul is an infraction that involves extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive contact." Also note that NCAA rule 10-4-1 is a catch-all clause. It states "committing an unsporting act, including but not limited to the following:" Again, note the "not limited to." Are you really trying to say that bench technicals during a dead ball can't be flagrant in nature? Also, you and your D1 counterparts may be surprised to find that 4-29-3(f) is labeled "Flagrant technical foul-DEAD BALL." Unsporting action by a coach that is deemed flagrant can be called at any time during an official's jurisdiction. Sooooooo, yes, I sureashell do disagree with you on this one.

Again, trying to say that the exact same act can be flagrant in nature during a live ball but not during a dead ball is completely ridiculous.

And let me give you another little piece of advice. Stating that numerous, un-named and anonymous D1 officials agree with you doesn't really advance the veracity of your claims. You can try to big-time it, but that won't work unless people actually believe you. Or agree with you. And stating that you're a D1 Womens official doesn't really impress me either, if that was your intent. Let your own arguments do your talking unless you're willing to name sources that can be checked. Your sources can be just as wrong as you.

[Gimlet25id]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) NCAA rule 4-29-3(f)2--"A flagrant non-contact technical foul is an infraction that involves extreme, sometimes persistent, vulgar, abusive contact." Also note that NCAA rule 10-4-1 is a catch-all clause. It states "committing an unsporting act, including but not limited to the following:" Again, note the "not limited to." Are you really trying to say that bench technicals during a dead ball can't be flagrant in nature? Also, you and your D1 counterparts may be surprised to find that 4-29-3(f) is labeled "Flagrant technical foul-DEAD BALL." Unsporting action by a coach that is deemed flagrant can be called at any time during an official's jurisdiction. Sooooooo, yes, I sureashell do disagree with you on this one.

Again, trying to say that the exact same act can be flagrant in nature during a live ball but not during a dead ball is completely ridiculous.

And let me give you another little piece of advice. Stating that numerous, un-named and anonymous D1 officials agree with you doesn't really advance the veracity of your claims. You can try to big-time it, but that won't work unless people actually believe you. Or agree with you. And stating that you're a D1 Womens official doesn't really impress me either, if that was your intent. Let your own arguments do your talking unless you're willing to name sources that can be checked. Your sources can be just as wrong as you.

Round and round we go where we stop nobody knows!!! First let me say that I wasn't "BIG TIMING," anybody. My statement was to MTD who asked and also said that @ the DI level there has been some bulletins addressing profanity in team huddles.

I really don't care if you believe who/if I talked to anybody else. I did for the simple reason to see what other officials both @ the DI and lower levels thought. I'm not going to give you names of other officials on a national forum, so that you can check out the validity of the sources. They weren't intended to be sources rather just other officials with an opinion.

If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!

Rule 10-4-1 "......but not limited to..." Penalty DIRECT TECHNICAL FOUL!!! Its one or the other. If its going to be a Bench Flagrant then that falls under Art. 8 & 9. (You just clarified why this would be a Bench T and not a Flagrant)

The comment to his player is Unsportsmanlike..I agree!!! Always have!!! If the player doesn't act on the comment then it's nothing more the a Bench T.

If the ball is live or dead for that matter and he tells his player to punch and the player Punch's, different story. The difference in the two comments is that one was a comment without any action (unsporting) and the other was a comment with action (Flagrant personnel or technical), which would be defined as fighting.... One happened while the ball is live Flagrant personnel, while the ball is dead Flagrant T.

4-26-4 " When during a confrontation, an individual uses unsportsmanlike acts or comments which, in the opinion of the official, provoke the other individual to retaliate by fighting, it shall be fighting..."

Coaches comments provoked the kid to fight so then both the coach and the player would be ejected.

If its just a unsporting comment then it can't be flagrant unless it instigates a fight. Its just simply penalized under Rule 10-4-1 "Committing a unsportsmanlike act..."

To toss the coach with a Flagrant T on just the comment and justifying it with Rule 4-29-3f is a stretch maybe/maybe not. However the Bench T under Rule 10-4-1 is right on and can't be argued, it was unsportsmanlike!!!

Well JR we both know that we aren't going to agree on this. I'm OK with that. If it happens to you or me, and I hope it doesn't for both our sakes, then you handle your way and I will handle it mine. Thats my opinion & I'm sticking to it!

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!

You don't think that a comment from an 8th grade girls coach telling a player to punch another player is "extreme conduct"? I guess you've never worked this level.

And - who said this level uses NCAA rules anyway? In my entire career (going back to the Naismith days) I can't think of a rec official at that level who wouldn't consider that comment "extreme".

Not only should a coach who says that be ejected, he should be tarred and feathered, drawn and quartered then locked in a closet and forced to listen to Barry Manilow at FULL VOLUME for 24 hours!!!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

I really don't care if you believe who/if I talked to anybody else. I did for the simple reason to see what other officials both @ the DI and lower levels thought.

I talked to officials at the D1 and lower levels too. They all thought that you and your counterparts were full of sh!t.

I guess we'll just have to disagree.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Gimlet25id

If you want to try and label the coaches comment that he made to his player that didn't result in any action, "extreme , sometimes persistent,vulgar, abusive conduct," then good luck with that!!!

Gimlet, I'm not a D1 ref, and I never will be. Probably won't ever do college of any level. But I like to read these kinds of discussion relating to the different levels, and try to understand the mindset behind the thinking. I understand your argument that at your level, this might be just a T without the ejection (not saying I agree or disagree, just understanding).

The part I'm confused about is the part about the player punching someone. If the coach yells to a player on the floor that she should punch someone, and before the whistle is even blown there's a punch, then, yea, I see that being an ejection.

But in the OP, the coach told the girl to punch her opponent the next time the girl got bumped. Well, at your level now, say you hear that comment and just hand out the T. Now, if the player waited until she got bumped to actually act on the incitement, do you eject the coach retroactively, so to speak? I"m confused how that would work in real life.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I am a generation of officials that believe that has not succumb to the philosophy of chest thumping, in your face, get out of my house type of sportsmanship that has become the norm in sports today.

Amen, brother.