What would you do?

[chartrusepengui]

What I will not do is use some arbitrary standard such as you suggest based upon the movements of a player to declare the period over and the try no good. There is no rule basis for that.

First - I agree that with that amount of time left I am going to chop and count.

BUT - that said I understand what he is saying about the player movement and I guess the basis he might have used is that the Fed says you cannot catch and shoot with .3 sec or less - it has to be a tip. So, using that standard, if a player caught the ball it would have to be .4 and if they did any other motion it would be longer than that.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

First - I agree that with that amount of time left I am going to chop and count.

BUT - that said I understand what he is saying about the player movement and I guess the basis he might have used is that the Fed says you cannot catch and shoot with .3 sec or less - it has to be a tip. So, using that standard, if a player caught the ball it would have to be .4 and if they did any other motion it would be longer than that.

Not necessarily true. There is no way of knowing for sure how long a turn the right of left takes. What if the catch isn't clean, but a quick bobble or slip of the ball? Does an official have definite knowledge that the try can't count? Nope.

What if the clock had read 0.8, 1.4, or 2.6? How many dribbles and pivots is he going to allow before he declares time to have expired? Thinking in such a manner is dangerous as it can only lead to problems and wrong decisions.

Simply put his advocated criterion has no validity under NFHS rules and shouldn't be used.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not necessarily true. There is no way of knowing for sure how long a turn the right of left takes. What if the catch isn't clean, but a quick bobble of slip of the ball? Does an official have definite knowledge that the try can't count? Nope.

What if the clock had read 0.8, 1.4, or 2.6? How many dribbles and pivots is he going to allow before he declares time to have expired? Thinking in such a manner is dangerous as it can only lead to problems and wrong decisions.

Simply put his advocated criterion has no validity under NFHS rules and shouldn't be used.

I believe it is better to prepare yourself mentally for the scneario by thinking "ok with .4 left it is going to have to be a quick shot, no time for any other motion" than it is to just not plan for anything and whenever the horn comes it comes...you can't count to .4 so it doesn't do a whole lot of good to count in this scenario other than to say that if you get to 1 with your count then the shot definitely doesn't count...I am not saying that I waved the shot off solely based on my own criteria, the horn was right there...I guess the idea is that the "gather" means she loses the benefit of the doubt...

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Not necessarily true. There is no way of knowing for sure how long a turn the right of left takes. What if the catch isn't clean, but a quick bobble of slip of the ball? Does an official have definite knowledge that the try can't count? Nope.

What if the clock had read 0.8, 1.4, or 2.6? How many dribbles and pivots is he going to allow before he declares time to have expired? Thinking in such a manner is dangerous as it can only lead to problems and wrong decisions.

Simply put his advocated criterion has no validity under NFHS rules and shouldn't be used.

If you read - I agreed that with that little amount of time left, I would chop and count however - my point still is that with .4 seconds (not 1.4 or 2. 6 or even .8) and if they "fumbled" the catch - that .4 would be gone. Period. If you can't catch with .3 or less - you certainly can't fumble or bobble and not have it be .4 or less!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

If you read - I agreed that with that little amount of time left, I would chop and count however - my point still is that with .4 seconds (not 1.4 or 2. 6 or even .8) and if they "fumbled" the catch - that .4 would be gone. Period. If you can't catch with .3 or less - you certainly can't fumble or bobble and not have it be .4 or less!

By rule though, 0.4 seconds on the clock is completely irrelevant as to whether a try is good or not. That's Nevada's (correct) point. By rule, you go by the horn when determining if the shot is in the air or not. Whether the clock started correctly or not is a whole different rule(timing mistake). In that case, a count might help you determine what to do if you felt that the clock wasn't started correctly.

In the case above with 0.4 seconds on the clock, if the ball is in the air when the horn goes, and you don't have definite information as to whether the clock was started properly or not, the rules say that you do have to count the basket.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by kbilla

I believe it is better to prepare yourself mentally for the scneario by thinking "ok with .4 left it is going to have to be a quick shot, no time for any other motion" than it is to just not plan for anything and whenever the horn comes it comes...you can't count to .4 so it doesn't do a whole lot of good to count in this scenario other than to say that if you get to 1 with your count then the shot definitely doesn't count...I am not saying that I waved the shot off solely based on my own criteria, the horn was right there...I guess the idea is that the "gather" means she loses the benefit of the doubt...

You are still trying to bring extra stuff into it. As you gain more experience, you will realize that just officiating the game per the rules is the best way to go.

Best Wishes.

[Coltdoggs]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

If you don't have definite knowledge, how are you going to say that the try has to be no good?

This situation is exactly why you should ALWAYS count!

Nevada...are you counting in your head or are you giving a visible count? I think I know your answer but post it anyway...

Obviously with .4 we are only getting to 1.0 with our count and if the ball is not out of hands, we have dead ball.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Nevada...are you counting in your head or are you giving a visible count? I think I know your answer but post it anyway...

Obviously with .4 we are only getting to 1.0 with our count and if the ball is not out of hands, we have dead ball.

As I wrote in another recent thread, my count is going to be a visible arm swing so that it shows up on video. Leave no doubt.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Nevada...are you counting in your head or are you giving a visible count? I think I know your answer but post it anyway...

Obviously with .4 we are only getting to 1.0 with our count and if the ball is not out of hands, we have dead ball.

Having been a hobbyist muscisian for a long time, I'm counting 16th notes at 60 bpm. If I get to the third one before the horn, 0.5 has elapsed and the clock started late. No basket.

(corrected spelling for juulie's enjoyment)

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by kbilla

Team A losing by 2 end of the game, goes up for shot to tie, misses, in the scrum after the rebound, the ball goes out on the endline (to Team A), L blows whistle to kill clock, as whistle blows T looks up and sees time still on the clock (tenths of a second, but how many?), then horn blows....

Your personal integrity will tell you what to do.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Having been a hobbiest muscisian for a long time, I'm counting 16th notes at 60 bpm. If I get to the third one before the horn, 0.5 has elapsed and the clock started late. No basket.

Well, you might be the hobbiest musician around, but I don't think that's what you meant, eh? s/b Hobb-y-ist. Just saying...

kbilla -- what you do is whatever thought process you are going to do, and then DON"T POST THAT THOUGHT PROCESS ON THE BOARD. You post the question without admitting what you did. That way you get the answer you need for next time, without the abuse. Got it?

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, you might be the hobbiest musician around, but I don't think that's what you meant, eh? s/b Hobb-y-ist. Just saying...

kbilla -- what you do is whatever thought process you are going to do, and then DON"T POST THAT THOUGHT PROCESS ON THE BOARD. You post the question without admitting what you did. That way you get the answer you need for next time, without the abuse. Got it?

You are wise beyond your years grasshopper.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Well, you might be the hobbiest musician around, but I don't think that's what you meant, eh? s/b Hobb-y-ist. Just saying...

kbilla -- what you do is whatever thought process you are going to do, and then DON"T POST THAT THOUGHT PROCESS ON THE BOARD. You post the question without admitting what you did. That way you get the answer you need for next time, without the abuse. Got it?

This is the truth...but I don't mind the abuse, it is a chat board I'm not losing any sleep over it...

[Brad]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

As I wrote in another recent thread, my count is going to be a visible arm swing so that it shows up on video. Leave no doubt.

Nevada - you seem to be a "by the book" guy but then say that you are going to have a visible count with seconds left in a game with the ball in the frontcourt? There is no rule / mechanic for that.

You definitely have to put time back on the clock -- even if you aren't quite sure if it is 0.6 or 0.4 ... you have definite knowledge that there was time left and it is the right and fair thing to do!

And for all of you counters out there... How the hell do you count in tenths of seconds?!? Counting doesn't really do you a bit of good in the situation outlined here.

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by Brad

Nevada - you seem to be a "by the book" guy but then say that you are going to have a visible count with seconds left in a game with the ball in the frontcourt? There is no rule / mechanic for that.

You definitely have to put time back on the clock -- even if you aren't quite sure if it is 0.6 or 0.4 ... you have definite knowledge that there was time left and it is the right and fair thing to do!

And for all of you counters out there... How the hell do you count in tenths of seconds?!? Counting doesn't really do you a bit of good in the situation outlined here.

If the ball is legally touched inbounds and you reach the count of 1 and time has not expired and no horn has gone off - you know definitively that more than .4 seconds have elapsed - perhaps even as much as 1.2 seconds.