Correct Procedure?

[Brad]

Good point Bob.

Of course, I was not really being serious, but you are right that technically it would not be a technical foul.

Sometimes I think that we create problems for ourselves when we are holding the rule book 6 inches from our face instead of stepping back to get the big picture of the situation.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Brad
If you are going to attempt to be a by-the-book official then, technically, you are also going to have to call a T on the other team for not having enough players on the court, right?

Of course not. That's stupid.

You have to use common sense. Your partner hands the ball to the free thrower, then the free throw(s) need to count.

I agree with the others that this is not a correctable error as defined in 2-10. It is also not the same as shooting during a time-out, since the official handed the ball to the shooter, making the ball live.

Bob J has already shown where your argument is wrong.
And this is certainly the first time *I've* ever been
accused of being a by-the-book-official. But now you've
done it, you made me look up the damn rules. So here goes:

NF 3.1.1 tells us that a team MUST have 5 players
participating. As soon as you tell the coach his player has
5 fouls he's disqualified (4-14-2), leaving only 4. Which
means we must wait for the 5th player to come in. And
the coach has 30 seconds to name that player. Dead ball.
Can't score during a dead ball, I don't care what 2-10
says, it's as good as a time out. But there's even more
direct guidance under NCAA 4-17-5:

"A disqualified player shall be replaced within a
30 second time limit. A signal shall be sounded
both 15 seconds before the expiration of this
time limit and at the end of the time limit,
with the latter signal indicating that play shall
resume."

Sorry folks, you can't score points before the game has
resumed. Like it or not, it's there in black & white.

It's a mess, but one of your own making and under the rules you have to reshoot the FTs, IMO. But of course you might
consider just leaving things as they stand

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

I know that I said I was going to bed, but I just could not resist this thread.

Yes, the official that started shooting free throws was a real doofus, but having said that, the offended player and team shot the free throws it and he/she were entitled to shoot. This is not a correctable error, just poor game management. While the rules references that Dan_ref gave us pertain to a disqualified player and the procedure to replace the disqualified player they do not trump the correctable error rule.

The lead official put the player on the free throw line and had him/her shoot the free throws. The officials cannot use the correctable error rule. There is no way I would want to tell the offended coach I am going to take points off the board and make his team shoot the free throws again. There is nothing in the rules book that can defend the reshooting the free throws.

Now can I go to bed. Good night everyone.

[zebraman]

Just let the free throws stand and move on. After the game, pretend your a "fan" and follow your partner to his car and kick his ***. Just kidding.

Z

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by zebraman
Just let the free throws stand and move on. After the game, pretend your a "fan" and follow your partner to his car and kick his ***. Just kidding.

Z

Short and to the point. I like it and the point that you made.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
I know that I said I was going to bed, but I just could not resist this thread.

Yes, the official that started shooting free throws was a real doofus, but having said that, the offended player and team shot the free throws it and he/she were entitled to shoot. This is not a correctable error, just poor game management. While the rules references that Dan_ref gave us pertain to a disqualified player and the procedure to replace the disqualified player they do not trump the correctable error rule.

The lead official put the player on the free throw line and had him/her shoot the free throws. The officials cannot use the correctable error rule. There is no way I would want to tell the offended coach I am going to take points off the board and make his team shoot the free throws again. There is nothing in the rules book that can defend the reshooting the free throws.

Now can I go to bed. Good night everyone.

Good night Mark. But it's just your opinion against mine,
and I say that no points can be scored during a dead ball.
Period. Pleasant dreams.

[Brian Watson]

Good night Mark. But it's just your opinion against mine,
and I say that no points can be scored during a dead ball.
Period. Pleasant dreams. [/B][/QUOTE]

Let's change this. Kid fouls out, his sub comes to the bench, you beckon him on, and then go to your position. Both you and your partner assume he came on the floor, but behind your back he went back over to his coach so that he could get some last minute instruction. Your partner resumes play with a throw in and a quick bucket is scored with B only havig four player on the floor, do you wipe that bucket?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Brian Watson


Good night Mark. But it's just your opinion against mine,
and I say that no points can be scored during a dead ball.
Period. Pleasant dreams.

Let's change this. Kid fouls out, his sub comes to the bench, you beckon him on, and then go to your position. Both you and your partner assume he came on the floor, but behind your back he went back over to his coach so that he could get some last minute instruction. Your partner resumes play with a throw in and a quick bucket is scored with B only havig four player on the floor, do you wipe that bucket? [/B][/QUOTE]

Brian, neither one of us is going to let the game resume
until the kid is beckoned in, on the floor and the table
knows who he's coming in for. If he makes a u turn and
goes back to the coach I'm gonna keep my arm up, so
would you. If he comes on the floor and then makes a
u turn he's in the game, let's play. But let's say we're working this game together, I beckon in B6 but he goes back
and sits on the bench without me seeing it. Now we have a
completely different animal, after the FT I'm going to ask
the coach what's up, and what I do next depends on his
answer. But you and I both know the FT will stand.

[Bart Tyson]

Dan_Ref, I no longer have the memo with me, however just resently NCAA Women's addressed this issue and they said this is not correctable. My understanding is this happened in a Men's game and the officials took points off the board. I also understood the officials got a suspention for not knowing the rules. You can verify this by emailing Barb. Jacobs.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Dan_Ref, I no longer have the memo with me, however just resently NCAA Women's addressed this issue and they said this is not correctable. My understanding is this happened in a Men's game and the officials took points off the board. I also understood the officials got a suspention for not knowing the rules. You can verify this by emailing Barb. Jacobs.

Thank you Bart. I had forgotten about that memo, and was defending my position on the rules alone, which was a pretty good defense of my position in the first place.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
Dan_Ref, I no longer have the memo with me, however just resently NCAA Women's addressed this issue and they said this is not correctable. My understanding is this happened in a Men's game and the officials took points off the board. I also understood the officials got a suspention for not knowing the rules. You can verify this by emailing Barb. Jacobs.

Thanks Bart, this is a lot more informative than "because
I said so". I looked on the NCAA officiating info site,
http://www.ncaa.org/champadmin/baske...ing_bulletins/
but I couldn't find it. Got something more solid than this?
(I guess I could just email them myself...)

I did find something interesting. The women's mechanic for
a "blarge" is NOT a double foul, as in men's & NFHS.
Officials have got to agree on either block or charge. I
like that.

[Bart Tyson]

Dan_ref, I will ask some of my partners if they still have the info or the sorce. We get emails, memos in the mail, bulletins, and we also check a wbktref site. Anyway, i will ask around.

[Slider]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Good night Mark. But it's just your opinion against mine,
and I say that no points can be scored during a dead ball.
Period.

Well, I think quite a few here have sided with Mark on this one (including myself).

And, the conflict isn't between your opinions, it is which rule takes precedence (NF):

1. 30 seconds to replace, clearly meant to be a TO period.

2. Ball put at player's disposal, that is how a ball becomes live, and play resumes.

I side with 2.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Slider

Well, I think quite a few here have sided with Mark on this one (including myself).

And, the conflict isn't between your opinions, it is which rule takes precedence (NF):

1. 30 seconds to replace, clearly meant to be a TO period.

2. Ball put at player's disposal, that is how a ball becomes live, and play resumes.

I side with 2.

I agree it's about precedence, and I agree I'm the only
one who sides with your number 1, which keeps me posting
on the topic! If someone would just say I'm right I would
stop! Let's take this from a huge screwup to a
ridiculous extreme. B1 fouls A1 on a shot, but B calls TO
before A1 can take his first FT. At the first horn
A1 goes to the line and makes a FT, B is still in their
huddle. Under your theory the ball has been made live and
the FT counts, in fact if the FT misses A1 shoots 2 again,
because none of team B occupied the lowests lane position.
See where I'm going? This is all kinda silly & fun but
it does point out that there are huge holes in the rules,
there's nothing more basic than 2-10 and live ball/dead
ball, is there?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

The thirty seconds to replace a disqualified or injured player is not a timeout. There are only two types of timeouts and they are both team timeouts (not withstanding electronic broadcast timeouts for NCAA games): one is long in duration and one is short in duration. The thirty second timeout to replace a disqualified or injured player does not fall into the team timeout category. And the situation is not a correctable error situation either because the player and team shoot the free throws to which he/she and it was entitled.