I'm moving:(

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

On our local board, the season in which you pass the written exam and the floor exam, doesn't count as a year. You must work at least three years of only junior varsity ball to move up. You must work at least three years of "split" ball, a combination or junior varsity and varsity games, to move up. Finally, after working at least three years of "split" ball, you can move up to full varsity, i.e all varsity games. So in reality, no matter how good your peer ratings, and rankings, are, you can't get a full varsity schedule until your seventh (or eighth including your first "probation" year) year.

It didn't effect me. I took me four years to make "split", and four more years to make full varsity, two years more than the minumum.

Note: We have over 280 officials, 85 are considered full varsity, 30 are considered "split". We service about 70 high schools, most with both boys and girls programs, as well as many freshman programs, and many middle school programs.

Pathetic. Systems such as this exist to protect those on top instead of instead of developing and utilzing better officials.

This system would prohibit a retired NCAA D-1 Final Four experienced official from working varsity for seven years. Incredible.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Pathetic. Systems such as this exist to protect those on top instead of instead of developing and utilzing better officials.

This system would prohibit a retired NCAA D-1 Final Four experienced official from working varsity for seven years. Incredible.

No, it keeps them from having all-varsity for 7 years. They get SOME varsity after 4 years. I wonder how good a retired NCAA D1 ref would be at HS varsity. Personally, I'd rather have those folks take a year or to to "adjust down" to a different set of expectations. Although I expect 4 years may be a bit too long.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

No, it keeps them from having all-varsity for 7 years. They get SOME varsity after 4 years. I wonder how good a retired NCAA D1 ref would be at HS varsity. Personally, I'd rather have those folks take a year or to to "adjust down" to a different set of expectations. Although I expect 4 years may be a bit too long.

Juulie - do you think Howard would give Joey Crawford some varsity games if he retired and moved to Portland?

WOW! Joey Crawford working HS. I'd pay to see that. Can't you just see him working an Oregon City girls game!

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Juulie - do you think Howard would give Joey Crawford some varsity games if he retired and moved to Portland?

WOW! Joey Crawford working HS. I'd pay to see that. Can't you just see him working an Oregon City girls game!

I'd like to see him tangle with Doherty at OC. THAT would be interesting. Or that %^&&( at Hillsboro. I'd bet on tossing him in about a minute and a half.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

No, it keeps them from having all-varsity for 7 years. They get SOME varsity after 4 years.

Don't drink the kool-aide. Any system that rigidly enforces the one size fits all "time-in-grade" as the one we are discussing, and is not flexible enough to consider talent and the reality that not all officials develop the same or transfer with the same experience and ability, exists to protect those on top of the pecking order, who, normally, have the votes on the board to keep it in place.

One of my proudest moments when I was a first time board member in the local baseball association was to help kill a similar restriction that had been in place for years, even though I was one of the senior officials being protected.

We now evaluate all transfers and assign them to the appropriate level. Before that, we had professional umpires restricted to JV games.

We also recognize that not all officials develop at the same rate. Some might need seven years of training, growth and experience to work a full varsity level. Most don't.

There are a number of good NCAA officials who began their college career within five years of working high school ball.

As far as your argument of taking time to "dial it down", many D-1 officials concurrently work a few high school games during their season. They know how to dial it down.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Don't drink the kool-aide.

PLEASE don't resurrect that old ghost. Pulleeeezzzeeeee.....

Originally Posted by GarthB

Any system that rigidly enforces the one size fits all "time-in-grade" as the one we are discussing, and is not flexible enough to consider talent and the reality that not all officials develop the same or transfer with the same experience and ability, exists to protect those on top of the pecking order, who, normally, have the votes on the board to keep it in place.

I didn't say I approved of this system. I just was pointing out that your 7 year rule wasn't entirely correct.

Originally Posted by GarthB

One of my proudest moments when I was a first time board member in the local baseball association was to help kill a similar restriction that had been in place for years, even though I was one of the senior officials being protected.

I agree with your effort. It makes the most sense to judge people based on their abilities rather than their "years in".

Originally Posted by GarthB

There are a number of good NCAA officials who began their college career within five years of working high school ball.

As far as your argument of taking time to "dial it down", many D-1 officials concurrently work a few high school games during their season. They know how to dial it down.

Right, but then they're in that hs association and won't need 7 years to get full varsity schedules. I also know that at least some D-1 assignors won't let their people work hs games. But in our association, D-1 refs can maintain their membership (time-in) and thus be eligible for varsity games as soon as they're allowed to take them.

[dblref]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Don't drink the kool-aide. Any system that rigidly enforces the one size fits all "time-in-grade" as the one we are discussing, and is not flexible enough to consider talent and the reality that not all officials develop the same or transfer with the same experience and ability, exists to protect those on top of the pecking order, who, normally, have the votes on the board to keep it in place.

One of my proudest moments when I was a first time board member in the local baseball association was to help kill a similar restriction that had been in place for years, even though I was one of the senior officials being protected.

We now evaluate all transfers and assign them to the appropriate level. Before that, we had professional umpires restricted to JV games.

We also recognize that not all officials develop at the same rate. Some might need seven years of training, growth and experience to work a full varsity level. Most don't.

There are a number of good NCAA officials who began their college career within five years of working high school ball.

As far as your argument of taking time to "dial it down", many D-1 officials concurrently work a few high school games during their season. They know how to dial it down.

We do the same in northern VA. All "transfers" are evaluated (actual game evaluations - usually HS rec ball if off season) by some of the senior varsity officials. The system seems to work well as we have a number of military that officiate, and there is no shortage of military in the DC area.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by dblref

We do the same in northern VA. All "transfers" are evaluated (actual game evaluations - usually HS rec ball if off season) by some of the senior varsity officials. The system seems to work well as we have a number of military that officiate, and there is no shortage of military in the DC area.

Sorry, but I have to throw up the BS flag. The Cardinal board - yes I know too much about too many associations - is very much a good ole boy system. I know of several members who had varsity high school, college and military base-level experience, but couldn't get a varsity schedule in Northern Virginia. Why would "senior varsity officials" allow someone to come into their area and get some of their games.

Not many are in the situation that I've been in many times, but open your minds for a second. If someone like me moved to town, how would you classify me? Would I be a "senior varsity official" or a new guy? I'm not at the highest classification here in Mississippi, BUT you couldn't look at my schedule and tell it.

I was initially held back when I got to the DC area. I was given one JV game without any more for the future. Some of the local guys already knew me because I had attended a JUCO camp before moving there, got hired and worked some rec ball for the rec assignor. With nothing to lose, I went dual (IAABO area) and went to a scrimmage for another assignor. I had to drive almost an hour in the cold and I worked for about 6 minutes of a 12-year old game with officials who just went through the training class. The assignor said thank you and told me he would be in touch. I was like, "What the heck?" The next day he called to give me my assignments, all varsity to include some Catholic league games which are the best high school games in the Washington DC area. Literally and hour later the first assignor called me to give me some games, all varsity. I was truthful with him, told him why I did what I did and I worked between the two to work my schedule out. The next year the rec assignor, who gave me games when I first got to town, became the high school assignor and wanted me exclusively. I wouldn't do it because the other assignor gave me high school games before anybody. There have been other guys on my original board who have attempted to go dual to get better/more games, but it hasn't worked out for them. My situation was unique because I didn't necessarily do it to get better games, I did it to get games period. During all this, the griping was concerning the fact that I was new and someone had been on the board for X amount of years. It was never once about my ability to work the games I was assigned. The current assignor in Mississippi has asked me to look at some officials to give my opinion on their ability to work varsity games.

I have been blessed to receive good training (from Arizona, Nevada, DC/Maryland and Mississippi), accept constructive critism and work hard. It would piss me off to move to an area and get assignments because I'm "new" to the area, but not nearly new to high school officiating. Trust me, there are better systems and I would like to think we would step up and say something if an official was blatantly getting less than they deserved simply because of their time in the local area.

[dblref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Sorry, but I have to throw up the BS flag. The Cardinal board - yes I know too much about too many associations - is very much a good ole boy system. I know of several members who had varsity high school, college and military base-level experience, but couldn't get a varsity schedule in Northern Virginia. Why would "senior varsity officials" allow someone to come into their area and get some of their games.

Not many are in the situation that I've been in many times, but open your minds for a second. If someone like me moved to town, how would you classify me? Would I be a "senior varsity official" or a new guy? I'm not at the highest classification here in Mississippi, BUT you couldn't look at my schedule and tell it.

I was initially held back when I got to the DC area. I was given one JV game without any more for the future. Some of the local guys already knew me because I had attended a JUCO camp before moving there, got hired and worked some rec ball for the rec assignor. With nothing to lose, I went dual (IAABO area) and went to a scrimmage for another assignor. I had to drive almost an hour in the cold and I worked for about 6 minutes of a 12-year old game with officials who just went through the training class. The assignor said thank you and told me he would be in touch. I was like, "What the heck?" The next day he called to give me my assignments, all varsity to include some Catholic league games which are the best high school games in the Washington DC area. Literally and hour later the first assignor called me to give me some games, all varsity. I was truthful with him, told him why I did what I did and I worked between the two to work my schedule out. The next year the rec assignor, who gave me games when I first got to town, became the high school assignor and wanted me exclusively. I wouldn't do it because the other assignor gave me high school games before anybody. There have been other guys on my original board who have attempted to go dual to get better/more games, but it hasn't worked out for them. My situation was unique because I didn't necessarily do it to get better games, I did it to get games period. During all this, the griping was concerning the fact that I was new and someone had been on the board for X amount of years. It was never once about my ability to work the games I was assigned. The current assignor in Mississippi has asked me to look at some officials to give my opinion on their ability to work varsity games.

I have been blessed to receive good training (from Arizona, Nevada, DC/Maryland and Mississippi), accept constructive critism and work hard. It would piss me off to move to an area and get assignments because I'm "new" to the area, but not nearly new to high school officiating. Trust me, there are better systems and I would like to think we would step up and say something if an official was blatantly getting less than they deserved simply because of their time in the local area.

Tomegun - pick up your BS flag, as there is no BS. I didn't say that all transfers were given a varsity schedule. I said all transfers were evaluated. They may or may not have been qualified for varsity. I have no idea why you were "held back". I transferred from Bull Run (where I worked some single A girls varsity) to Cardinal (after my son graduated from a school serviced by Cardinal), and I was evaluated. Cardinal has the "sub-varsity" (F/JV), the "swing", (mixture of JV/V), and "varsity" (predominately V). I was put on the "swing level", and for the first year or so, I got mostly F/JV games -- I think I got 8 or 9 varsity games. The next year, I was elevated to varsity level. Even at the varsity level, I worked F/JV/V. On some nights, I would work a freshman game at one school and then work a varsity game at another school. Or, I might work the freshman game, sit out the JV game, and then work the varsity game at the same school. I did this because I was able to leave work for the early games (usually 4:00 - 4:30), and it helped the assignor. This being "helpful" usually resulted in being assigned to one of the "better" games sometime down the road. I was qualifed to do the game, and it pays to be available.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by dblref

Tomegun - pick up your BS flag, as there is no BS. I didn't say that all transfers were given a varsity schedule. I said all transfers were evaluated. They may or may not have been qualified for varsity. I have no idea why you were "held back".

I wasn't held back at all while I lived in the area. I just know of more than one official who wasn't given a schedule the goes along with their ability. Those officials would have been given varsity schedules in board 12 or 134.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

No, it keeps them from having all-varsity for 7 years. They get SOME varsity after 4 years. I wonder how good a retired NCAA D1 ref would be at HS varsity. Personally, I'd rather have those folks take a year or to to "adjust down" to a different set of expectations. Although I expect 4 years may be a bit too long.

So 10 years from now Ed Hightower stops officiating D-I games because his body can no longer keep up with the speed of the game and moves town. He calls up an assignor on the phone asking to work some games.

ED: Hi, I'm Ed Hightower. I worked 11 D-I Final Four tournaments. Can I work varsity games for you this Winter?
ASSIGNOR: Sorry Ed, you'll have to hone your skills for 3 years working underclass games before I can trust you on a varsity game.
ED: But I was named the D-I men's official of the year in 1992, I know how to officiate. There is no way I should not have a full varsity schedule.
ASSIGNOR: Ed, you won't be able to get a full varsity schedule for 7 years.
ED: I worked 7 consecutive D-I Final Four tournaments. Doesn't that count for anything?
ASSIGNOR: No, skill isn't really important when it comes to who receives which games. Much more important is how long you have been around.
ED: I have been around for a long time. I worked D-I games for 30+ years.
ASSIGNOR: Well I was only talking about how long you have been around this area.
ED: So the 4th year official who has worked 85 games is higher up than me? I've worked more D-I post season tournament games than that.
ASSIGNOR: In this area having 85 underclass games under your belt counts for more than a few thousand D-I games when it comes to working varsity.


Stop denying it, the system used in your area is a complete joke. As Garth said, stop drinking the Kool-Aid. It isn't hard at all to find a good system. The goal of the system should be to put the best officials on the court (through training, evaluating, and proper assigning) instead of trying to find arbitrary reasons for holding someone back.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Stop denying it, the system used in your area is a complete joke. As Garth said, stop drinking the Kool-Aid.

The four year wait isn't in my area. I wasn't defending it. I just said it didn't take 7 years to get some varsity. Sheez, read what I wrote, for pete's sake. And stop using that K-word. It evokes very bad images...

Originally Posted by LDUB

It isn't hard at all to find a good system. The goal of the system should be to put the best officials on the court (through training, evaluating, and proper assigning) instead of trying to find arbitrary reasons for holding someone back.

Nobody said anything about "arbitrary reasons for holding someone back". You're twisting my words. There are more than two possibilities here, either a really good system that puts the best people on the court, or a really bad system where everyone is treated unfairly. Our system in Portland (not the one that Billy described with the 4 year wait) has it's good points and it's bad points just like every other system in the country.

[stripes]

Originally Posted by LDUB

So 10 years from now Ed Hightower stops officiating D-I games because his body can no longer keep up with the speed of the game and moves town. He calls up an assignor on the phone asking to work some games.

ED: Hi, I'm Ed Hightower. I worked 11 D-I Final Four tournaments. Can I work varsity games for you this Winter?
ASSIGNOR: Sorry Ed, you'll have to hone your skills for 3 years working underclass games before I can trust you on a varsity game.
ED: But I was named the D-I men's official of the year in 1992, I know how to officiate. There is no way I should not have a full varsity schedule.
ASSIGNOR: Ed, you won't be able to get a full varsity schedule for 7 years.
ED: I worked 7 consecutive D-I Final Four tournaments. Doesn't that count for anything?
ASSIGNOR: No, skill isn't really important when it comes to who receives which games. Much more important is how long you have been around.
ED: I have been around for a long time. I worked D-I games for 30+ years.
ASSIGNOR: Well I was only talking about how long you have been around this area.
ED: So the 4th year official who has worked 85 games is higher up than me? I've worked more D-I post season tournament games than that.
ASSIGNOR: In this area having 85 underclass games under your belt counts for more than a few thousand D-I games when it comes to working varsity.


Stop denying it, the system used in your area is a complete joke. As Garth said, stop drinking the Kool-Aid. It isn't hard at all to find a good system. The goal of the system should be to put the best officials on the court (through training, evaluating, and proper assigning) instead of trying to find arbitrary reasons for holding someone back.

I don't think it can be illustrated more plainly than that.

[gordon30307]

I'm not an evaluator nor am I qualified to be one. To measure the quality of an Official there seems to be (there might be other factors) four components:

Judgement
Rules Knowledge
Mechanics
Game Management

You can observe mechanics and you can test rules knowledge but judgement and game management are subjective. This is where the new (to the area) experienced guy has to prove himself. It might take a season to gain the trust of the assignor. Then again if you're battling the good ole boys............

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by gordon30307

You can observe mechanics and you can test rules knowledge but judgement and game management are subjective. This is where the new (to the area) experienced guy has to prove himself. It might take a season to gain the trust of the assignor. Then again if you're battling the good ole boys............

Here is what I love about our system. If an assignor likes you, they hire you. Of course they give the song and dance, "If you work my lower level games then you might get a shot......." That is really not true at all. If you can work and you go to camp and prove it, you will get hired if you have talent and someone sees it. I know a few people that transferred in and got varsity games right off the bat. There is nothing preventing someone from getting hired but the assignor and in some cases other officials that ask for a partner to come along. The only thing you might have a hard time to face is getting a playoff game and that is because the state runs that system and decides how much of your experience they will consider in that process. Or the state will decide how long it will take you to get promoted to the top level. And in many cases it takes those individuals a much shorter time to get to the Certified level (the highest level but not a requirement to work post season games). The more and more I read the happier that I am where I am.

Peace