legal or not?

[Johnny Ringo]

A1 dives for loose ball and controls it while sliding ... A1 comes to rest on stomach with ball in their hands out in front of them. From that point can A1 turn over (180 degree turn) to pass the ball ... I have always thought this to be a violation, however while working a two-man varsity tournamrent over the weekend the veteran official passes on this as it was in his primary. When discussed after the game with some of the tournament staff the vet official said in order to be a travel the player had to be a 360 degree which is how a roll is defined. And went on to say the player is allowed to have the opportunity to turn over to pass it??????????

Tell me he is completely wrong.

[BillyMac]

A player may slide on the floor while trying to secure a loose ball until that player’s momentum stops. At that point that player cannot attempt to get up or rollover. A player securing a ball while on the floor cannot attempt to stand up unless that player starts a dribble. A player in this situation may also pass, shoot, or call a timeout. If the player is flat on his or her back, that player may sit up without violating.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

Tell me he is completely wrong.

He is completely wrong.

[Johnny Ringo]

The player did not attempt to stand up - just roll/turn from being face down on stomach to on their back to attempt a pass. The vet official said this was legal. I knew he was wrong ...

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A player in this situation may also ...........call a timeout.

Is that anything like requesting a timeout?

Ah, the battle goes on.

BillyMac, please notice all the smiley faces. Don't go Bobby Knight on me.

[BktBallRef]

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?
RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

When discussed after the game with some of the tournament staff the vet official said in order to be a travel the player had to be a 360 degree which is how a roll is defined. And went on to say the player is allowed to have the opportunity to turn over to pass it??????????

Tell me he is completely wrong.

What an absolutely stupid definition of "roll."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating?
RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

Call: Definition: to talk loudly

Mark Padgett: You are correct to "call" me out on this, but note that the NFHS uses the term "call".

Rookie officials: Mark Padgett makes an important point that officials and coaches must know, requesting a timeout, is not the same as being granted a timeout.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Johnny Ringo

A1 dives for loose ball and controls it while sliding ... A1 comes to rest on stomach with ball in their hands out in front of them. From that point can A1 turn over (180 degree turn) to pass the ball ... I have always thought this to be a violation, however while working a two-man varsity tournamrent over the weekend the veteran official passes on this as it was in his primary. When discussed after the game with some of the tournament staff the vet official said in order to be a travel the player had to be a 360 degree which is how a roll is defined. And went on to say the player is allowed to have the opportunity to turn over to pass it??????????

Tell me he is completely wrong.

Johnny,
We had a thread on this back at the start of the season. The thread is now closed.
Throw-in/Traveling
You should give it a read and see if it leads you to do any reflection.


Therein I wrote the following post (#35) which sparked the debate:

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Quote:


Yep, that's a great case play. Lots of information in there.
Unfortunately, you have hit upon one of my pet peeves. I see far too many officials penalize kids for making good plays by hustling and exerting effort simply because these officials don't fully understand the traveling rule. I don't know how you came to believe the above statements, but neither one of them is true.

Here's the text of that case play:
4.44.5 SITUATION B: A1 dives for a loose ball and slides after gaining control. A1 is in a position either on his/her back or stomach. What can A1 do without violating? RULING: A1 may pass, shoot, start a dribble or call a time-out. Once A1 has the ball and is no longer sliding, he/she may not roll over. If flat on his/her back, A1 may sit up without violating. Any attempt to get to the feet is traveling unless A1 is dribbling. It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball. (4-44-5b)

As you can see it is only illegal to "roll over." Now I don't know how you define that, but any reasonable person wouldn't consider it to be twisting to the side to protect the ball or the start of the rotation of the body.

The rules don't say that it is illegal to roll to the side, turn away from an opponent, or twist the body. If the NFHS wanted those actions to be illegal, they would have said so.

Perhaps JR will be kind enough to have his dog demonstrate rolling over for us.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

What an absolutely stupid definition of "roll."

Might be a good definition in gymnastics or football, I suppose, but definitely not correct for basketball.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Might be a good definition in gymnastics or football, I suppose, but definitely not correct for basketball.

Especially since 180 degrees is enough to switch from front to back.

[Coltdoggs]

Additionally, if said "roll" happened while still sliding, we don't have a violation either, correct?

[Johnny Ringo]

Correct.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Coltdoggs

Additionally, if said "roll" happened while still sliding, we don't have a violation either, correct?

Maybe. If the roll is due to the sliding/momentum, no violation. But if the player intentionally rolls over in a way that is NOT part of the slide, it is a violation.

Imagine A1 diving for the ball on a really slick floor. A1, having grabbed the ball, is sliding forward and perfectly headfirst on their belly. Realizing this would put them in a poor position to pass as they approched an OOB line, A1 rolls to their back just before the sliding stops....traveling.

Sure it would be exteremely unlikely to occur that way but it is important to know that diving for the loose ball doesn't make everything OK until they stop sliding. If the roll is caused by momentum as part of the dive, the roll is OK (95%+ of the time). If the roll is initiated by the player independant of the dive/slide, it is not OK.