If you are the R
 

If you are the R what all do you do and check at the scorer's table and in the book prior to the game?

Personally, I make sure that the timer and scorekeeper know what they're doing. I don't accept a "I have done this before" from them: I still pre-game with them certain things, such as notifying us when a player has 4 fouls, what signals stop and start the clock, to confirm the visual display with the book, how to handle the arrow, etc...

I soemtimes will remind them that if there is a timing error that needs fixing, then I will do so, if they're new.

I also check that the lineups and the rest of the scoresheet are completed properly. I do this at about 5 minutes before tip-off for tournament games, as the gyms are very busy with teams coming and going. 10 minutes for HS games. I usually assume that the timing device is working properly.

I tell the scorers that they are considered part of the officiating crew and must remain neutral during the game. I tell them that if they show any partisanship at all, I'll run their a$$. I make sure the person keeping the book is using a pencil with an eraser and that the person running the clock can count to over ten without taking his shoes off. I tell them that if they brought any food, they have to give half to my partner and me. Finally, I tell them that if a sub reports to the table without having his jersey tucked in to smack him upside the head.

Then I get the coaches together and ask them if they want to buy foul insurance.

I love it! Seven years here and you're still coming up with new ones! :p

I forgot to mention you always need to ask if they want the "indirect technical" rider. ;)

:confused:

I simply go over to make sure that the right information is submitted to the table. I used to go through a pre-game. I have found out or realized that most people already know their role. I really do not go over things with them. I tend to pay attention to what goes on during the sophomore game and if I need to address something I might do that if I see someone not doing their job. Otherwise I introduce myself, tell a joke or say something funny and I move on.

Peace

What are the details of the policy?

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Many of score keepers in my area need extra attention. Sometimes there are the gems - those that "get it" - but often the kids need a hand held. Telling me when a player has 4 fouls does two things:

• it allows me to know that the next one is their 5th, and thus additional mechanics come into play
• if they forget, then I've found that they notice after the ball is back in play and make it a point to let me know on the 5th
  • this prevents the situation when a scorer doesn't know a player has 5 until after the ball is back inbounds after the ensuing throw-in

I know you're kidding on this one, right? :)

Good intentions aside, being notified that a player has 4 fouls is baggage you don't need to be carrying.

I know that Johnny's question was a serious one, but the first thing I do as the R is designate the U1 to make the toss to start the game and the U2 to chop time in (from the U1 position) because I am the laziest official in the world. I don't particular care to officiate two-man crews because it means I have to expend energy chopping time in. :D

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

MTD, Sr.

I think it is good game awareness to know if a player has 4 fouls. If the table can help you there--great. Never thought of that before. I also like the idea of having the table crew help with having jersies tucked. Great stuff.

The one thing I have not seen is shot clock operators. It is good to ensure that they understand that the shot clock is only reset when the team starts their possession. Lots of times they start it upon the reset after a made basket, which can be a few seconds early, and the shot clock can be one of your best friends should you have to call 10 seconds, if it is kept properly. If you want to be really detail-oriented, I've heard of R's actually asking the shot clock operator to try and remember the game clock time for each reset, so if you have to go back and reconstruct due to timer or equipment errors, you can do so with complete accuracy.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I've worked it into my game oh - close to a decade ago. When a player is called for their 5th foul, I am ahead of the game when it comes to communication with the table and my P.

Like I said, it's also to keep the scorekeepers on their toes.

I guess my piece of advice for you then is don't try it if you don't like it.

Jugs - I'm sure I don't have to go into why your comment on being notified about a player's fourth foul elicited such a reaction. In all those years, haven't you taken any flak about "not wanting to call the 5th" on a kid? I have to believe it's come up numerous times.

I'm not implying that it has an effect on your calls - not at all - but just curious about the comments and the impression it creates. Whenever a scorekeeper tells me how many fouls a kid has (unless it's five), I always tell them to not mention it.

I think that you are putting an unnecessary burden on your table crew and its entirely possible that you are going to give one of your partners information overload. What if you are working with someone who doesn't want to know about 4th fouls? They simply want to focus on the game and only deal with 5th fouls.

What about the crew that comes in the following game and the table notifies them of someone's 4th foul and they get confused? This could lead to serious communication issues with that crew and the coaches.

Overall, I don't like it.

As for your rationale of being ahead of the game, why not be two steps ahead and have the table notify you on each player's 3rd foul? Or be WAY ahead and have them notify you on 2nd fouls. ... :p

Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.

I'm not sure about having the table notify you that a player has 4 fouls, but I do think it is a good idea to know if a player has 4 fouls. I almost always know how many fouls each player has, especially if it is one of the better players in the game. I'm sure I'm about to open up a huge debate here, but we have to know who the best players are and who has what fouls. I'll answer the question that will get asked "Why do we care if a player has 4 fouls? if he fouls and its his fifth we need to call it" before it gets asked. While I agree if it is a foul we need to call it I do think there is game management involved, especially if we just called the player for his 4th foul and it was marginal. In this case we better make sure his 5th foul is an obvious foul. Let the debate and disagreement begin!

What the heck difference does this make to us?

Define "marginal". Either it's a foul or it isn't - period.

So, if the behavior that earned him his 4th foul happens again but you don't think it was "obvious" (whatever that means), you're not going to call it? Defend that way of thinking please.

I recall the situation and I recall the venue, level, and even my P, who now does NCAA-level ball. When I told him my decision on who to rule committed the foul, he said it was fine.

You are correct - there is no effect on my calls.

Impression is of second concern here. I found that there was a high number of cases (in my mind) where the ball would be put back into play with the fouling player with 5 fouls but this fact was not mentioned to the officials during the reporting phase. Instead, the 5th-foul information reached the officials during a later stoppage in play (not necessarily the next stoppage, but it often was), or worse: a buzzer sounded during a live ball.

To illeviate this problem, I initated the mechanic above. If somebody doesn't like it, then don't use it. If they don't have a problem with teenage scorekeepers losing attention, then don't use it.

Meh, it works for me and I've yet to see a table crew that can't handle the task. I am basically reminding them of the importance of passing this information to me. I guess I open myself up as you mention. When it happens I will let you know. ;)

I just talked about this above but, "obvious" means there is no argument that it was a foul. No one can question what you called. Fouls that get called should all be this way. Sometimes we make calls that are less obvious than others and other times we make wrong calls. We can help ourselves by knowing the situations in games and making sure that we respond appropriately to them. In the situation I brought up, we have called a "marginal" 4th foul on one of the better players in the game. Now we make sure that his 5th is an "obvious" foul. If it isn't then I promise you you are going to get some heat from the coach who now has to sit his player because he just got two fouls called on him, that could have been fouls, or we could have passed on. It's called game management and it can help you as an official.

Why does everybody try to justify their very own personal (and goofy imo) philosophies by trying to brand them as being "game management"? It might be the way that <b>you</b> manage <b>your</b> game, but that sureasheck doesn't make it "game management".

Hey, if you want to track every player's fouls on both teams, be my guest. Personally, I'll leave that to the scorer. I've got better things to do....like officiate a game.

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/roflmao.gif

U-da MAN!!!

The above post provides more questions than answers for me. Some fouls are more obvious than others, certainly. No one can question it when you call an "obvious" foul, you say. Hard to draw that line, even if it had meaning. Some calls are less obvious and some are wrong, you say. We need an obvious foul after a marginal foul, so what do we do after a "wrong call" on a foul? The part about the "better player" is the part I find disturbing. This indicates that you rank the players and call fouls differently from player to the next. If you are worried about "heat from the coach" I can't think of anything more likely to draw it than the scorer saying "That's his 4th foul." One side will say, "They're trying to get him out," while the other will say, "They're trying to protect him."

We have an infinite number of decisions to make in every game. If you draw all these lines and put all these restrictions on so many calls, it makes your job that much more difficult, and, in my opinion, opens you up to even more criticism.

You are wise beyond your years. :)

So let me ask this. A1 has 4 fouls, B1 doesn't. A1 drives the lane and B1 slides in and gains LGP just prior to A1 leaving the floor. B1 is still moving slightly, but hasn't given up his LGP, so by rule you have a pc foul on A1. You going to defer and call the block because the pc isn't obvious to everyone in the gym?

I will say this, I am not a fan of being told how many fouls we have called on a player by the table. Once again, whether you like it or not, the fouls you call on players that are vital to a team are big to them. And if it is big to them, they will complain whether you like it or not. Having knowledge is never a bad thing, just like I pay attention to the foul disparity for teams. It does not mean I change drastically what I was doing during the other parts of the game, but if I have a 8-1 foul total, I want to make sure I am not missing the foul on the team that has 1 foul. It is very easy to do and focus. Just like you try to focus the last few minutes of a game, you can consentrate on not giving a cheap foul to a player that is key. I do not see why this is any of a bigger deal than knowing the styles of the teams you are officiating and adjusting to what you might call because you have certain styles playing the game.

I do agree that not everyone has the ability to do that and that is why many officials get themselves in big trouble because they might not know how to make decisions on the magnitude of the situations they have to officiate in.

Peace

Right. So what difference does it make if it's the fifth foul, or the first foul? Concentrate on making all the fouls "good calls", and you'll have less to worry about when the fifth foul does come around.

One thing I do as the R is make sure I designate the official scorebook. I know that it is normally the home book but you can change it as the R if you feel you need to. I've never done this (change it) but I feel the need to make sue that the "non-official scorebook" book keeper understands which book counts.

So it's less important if you miss a foul on the team that has 8 fouls?
And it doesn't matter if you give a cheap foul to a player that is not key?

I suppose some of us lack your power of consentration.

Speak for yourself, grasshopper. ;)

I did not say it is anything. You are the one trying to imply something because you seemed to not understand a basic statement. If I have a game that is going down to the wire and it is a one point game, my focus is a little different than a 40 point blow out. Whether you like it or not you need to officiate to the game you have in front of you. You have a perfect game 30 minutes and if you screw something up in the last two minutes, guess what they remember?

Peace

In other words: "I skip right past the obvious questions inspired by my earlier "basic statements."

Why is it such a hard concept to understand that I do not care what I just called, I have to focus on the rest of the game? If you screw up on your first call of the game do you harp on it the rest of the game? I don't.

Peace

That 8-1 foul total is a part of what you "just called," is it not?

Yes and whether you like it or not someone is going to complain about that foul total in that situation. They always do and always will. And if you continue to call fouls and the foul total becomes 15-1 and you called everything you were supposed to and did not miss anything you were not supposed to, then you are doing your job. It is no different than if you have a fight and tempers are running high, you make sure you get everything you can because you might want to keep other things in check so you do not have another fight. I do not know about you, but I officiate that way all the time and most of the officials I work with have a similar position. Hey, if you just call the game in a bubble and hope that nothing happens, that is your right to do so.

Peace

Rut makes




a

random



series

of


posts which


are difficult


to follow

because so many


relate so little

to each other.


Or is that just my impression?

JAR,

I just think this is a topic you cannot understand. If you cannot understand what you called before does not relate to what you will have to call in the future, then we really need to stop having this conversation. It is simple, if you have 3 or 4 fouls on a player (star player or valued player), you better make that 5th one a good one and not call something you have not been calling the rest of the game or give a cheap one. If you have an 8-1 foul disparity, and you miss fouls on the team that only called one foul against, the tape might be the thing the coach uses to say you are a horrible official and send to your supervisor. No one remembers the first foul of the game. Everyone remember the foul that sent the team to the line with seconds left that decided the game. If that is hard to understand, then I really do not know what to tell you. And if you do not officiate that way, that is fine with me, I do. And it has worked for me very well for years.

Peace

Why not just concentrate on not giving a cheap foul to <b>anybody</b>? Works for me.

And there's where I get confused. Shouldn't that philosophy apply to <b>every</b> player on both teams, not just the star or valued players....and also to every foul that you call(hopefully if not realistically)?

I think the problem with this topic and its responses are the different levels at which each officials work. What some here are trying to tell you is that at and cetain level of basketball you have to be more aware of what's going on. We like to refer to this as the game with-in the game. At other levels this is less important. But in order to move up to a higher level of basketball these things become important. If you don't work those levels and don't want to then, don't use them. But to say that not having the knowledge of who the best players are, and who has how many fouls isn't important is not going to get you very far as you try to move up.

If you call a foul on the 10th guy off the bench, no one really cares or is going to analyze what you just called. And that player was probably supposed to foul or give up a foul in the first place. :)

Peace

Red = what you have called before

Blue = what you will have to call in the future

The two things do not relate to each other, yet the presence of the first thing affects the possibility of whether to call the second thing. You're right about one thing. I don't get this......at all.

Actually they do very much relate. But then again just like TD21 said, you and I are coming at this from different levels of understanding. It is just that simply and discussing it further is going to confuse you more.

Peace

What level of understanding would this be?

OK, what levels do you work? How long have you worked those levels? What camps do you attend every year? What level of officials do your partner's normally work?

If you answer these questions, I can explain further.

Peace

varsity and below


22nd year of jr. high and below......7th year as a registered official, which allowed me to begin calling varsity
never been to a camp

This question makes no sense.

I am certain that I have not reached the level where I post back to back statements that directly contradict each other, then look down on others for their lack of understanding. When I reach that level, hopefully Nevadaref will let me know, and I can take a year off or something.

I only work varsity for the most part. I will work one lower level game this season.

This is my 12th year of basketball officiating. This season I have worked 11 straight full varsity schedule seasons. The lowest total of varsity games I have worked in a season was 25 games and that was in my 4th season after I have moved to another area.


I have averaged about 4 or 5 camps every single year I have been officiating. I attend at least 2 camps for the past 6 years or so college camps. I am also a clinician in my state in basketball.

Every concept I have told you comes from camps and other officials that I have worked with on a consistent basis. Most officials that I work with now, either have college experience or have worked multiple years at the varsity level. It sound contradictory to you because you are probably working with people that might see the game as "every game is the same, here is where we need to stand on timeouts and here is what we do if we DQ a player." Most of my pre-games are about, "Who are the top players on the team? What do they do well (post player, perimeter player, and scorer)? What kinds of coaches do we have tonight and their personalities (legends, first year coaches, quite, animated)?" So if I am talking about the foul deferential or the number of fouls a particular player has that is important to me to prepare myself and the crew as to what we will have to deal with when we call 4 and 5 on a player. Or we will know what the answer is when a coach claims the he is getting screwed. I have been known to tell a coach when the foul total is drastically in one direction, "Coach, you are running a full court defense and they are running a zone and you are not attacking the basket." You will be amazed how many times that shuts them up because they realize you are into the game or they cannot argue with what is taking place in the game. To you fouls that a player has is completely different than foul totals between teams. To me they are in the same family of concern because both are things that coaches (right or wrong) focus on and tend to want to throw in your face when things are getting out of hand against them.

Now I think you do not completely get what I am saying because as TD21 said, you have not been exposed to the same things I have. You have not even attended a camp which tells me that you have likely not heard very experienced officials talk about philosophy. And often times you cannot get that at association meetings. We have an official in one of my associations that puts out an email and is on our website called "Advanced Officiating." He talks often about things that are not simple concepts and are beyond the scope of "making every call the same because every game is the same." You seem to buy into the fact that every call is the same and should be the same no matter what and that is OK with me. I understand that philosophy and I used to buy into big time. I have learned that I do not know everything and many of the things that have made other officials successful I can use. If you do not want to accept what I am saying (and I know Woody does not) that is OK. That just makes my approach to the game different.

Also another thing, you have never seen me officiate. I have never seen you officiate. All we are talking about here is a concept. I do not know any person in one profession that approaches the craft the same way. How I approach the game works for me. I know as a clinician when I tell an official something, they can and will reject what I tell them from time to time. If you want to perfectly understand, you probably need to attend a camp or several and you might hear someone else tell the story like I had to learn some things when I was at camp.

Peace

When I do the shot clock, I actually write down the game clock time of every reset or stoppage. It comes in handy when, for example, the ball is awarded to the defense on an OOB call, then the official changes his/her call to award the ball to the offense. Last reset was at 18:45, we're at 18:25 now, so we should have 15 seconds on the shot clock (or 10 in a women's game).

One interesting take on this is something I've seen at the college where I now help out the table crew from time to time. While most arenas have the game and shot clocks tied together, they run theirs independently. That way, as long as one clock starts/stops correctly, they can reset the other one.

They always relate to each other. Every thing we call/don't call affects what we do next. All the plays and situations that happen go together to form the game. What we do or don't do affects that game. That's why you need to know what you have called previously. Without that information you can't do your entire job correctly. But I understand if this makes no sense to you. If you haven't been taught it or never seen it in action then you wouldn't understand the meaning behind the process. So as JRut say, go to camp and see what the people are teaching. I'm not saying that you need to do this in your games. What I am saying is that you need to do them if you want to move up and do a higher level than you are currently at. And the best part is that it will even help you at the level you are at.

I am, it seems, a low level official. I am at the level that I choose to work and have no ambition to reach the "next level." This is true even if advancing to the next level does not mean protecting the stars, and throwing fouls at the 10th guy off the bench because nobody cares about him, as insinuated by some here who dwell at higher levels. There are many things that I do not understand from my low level. But one thing that I do understand is that it is difficult to talk down to someone when you are sadly lacking in basic communication skills.

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking. I bet you believe that the best game is never to be noticed either? ;)

You said you have never attended camp. That just boggles the mind that you can be officiating for about 5 years and never attend a camp and I am the one that has a lack of understanding? I find that rather hilarious.

Peace

just another ref,
You would be best served by following the advice of JR. It's certainly what I strive to do.

This may require a translator between high and low levels officials, but that sounds a lot like protecting the star to me.

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy. Almost invariably, the other coach complains about the differential. And, almost invariably, it gets close to evened up, even though it appears to me that the other team has not decreased their level of fouling and we have not increased our level of fouling. It could be my imagination, though. Just once, I'd like to hear a ref respond, "That's because you're fouling, and they're not". I have to admit that when the foul differential is not in my favor, I'll often point it out as well.

And, I would definitely call a ref on why he needs to know that one of the other team's players has four fouls. To me, it can only mean that he's gonna call fouls for that guy differently.

Obviously, I've never worked your games. ;)

Why? Do you not recognize that your team may be superior of the other team, or that the other team has been coached incorrectly? You should be not happy if the game is inconsistenly called, but statistically speaking, you will be involved in games with lopsided foul counts. Either play better defense or expect the other team to play better defense. Good teams adapt.

What do you think of an official that always knows the status of the arrow? If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow, does it mean that they are calling a held ball differently from occurance to occurance? It's about preventing mistakes.

What does this mean? How do you overrule the visible arrow?

If you're not going to call a foul differently from occurrence to occurrence either, then what mistakes can you prevent just by knowing that a player has 4 fouls? :confused:

I have a question about this, since it seems so common place and needed to me. Are there that many officials out there that don't know foul counts, time on the clock, directional arrow, what the teams are running and what the players on the floor can and can't do? I would think that officiating a game like this would be like doing taxes without have W-2's 1099's and not knowing how to add. It can't be done correctly if you don't have all the information and you don't know how to use it. This information, in my opinion is just as important as knowing the rules and how to apply them. I'm not saying you need to do all this stuff to get through a game, but I am saying that you should be aware of these things if you want officiate the game the right way. It helps so much.

That's a really broad term.

Some information can be useful to an official. That certainly might include time left on the clock, what the teams are running and what the players can do, as well as other things. Knowing who has the arrow is only relevant if you mistrust your table personnel to properly keep track. Some information however is <b>NEVER</b> needed to officiate a game properly. That information includes how many fouls each player has committed. Knowing that information is of absolutely no value to an official ever imo.

Does that answer your question?

Btw, how would knowing how many fouls a player has help you officiate the "right" way?

If you're scared of fouling out the star player on a call the whole gym doesn't agree with? There could be another reason, I just can't think of it.

Yes it does answer my question, and thank you for being honest that you do use some of the stuff I mentioned and not others. The point of the question was to find out what people use in their game, what they don't and why. I think, and this is my opinion, that knowing the foul counts of players can be helpful. But I'm also the type of official that remembers specific plays and the time on the clock they happened so we can talk about them later. Ie a block/charge that happened at 2:15 left in the first half compared to the same block/charge at 3:12 of the second half. Call me crazy, but this too is very important for learning how to call the game consistently IMO. There is so much more to the game from an officials stand point than just calling fouls and violation. We have to understand why we call things and certain way and how doing so affects the game. That's what makes great officials. If it were easy then anyone could put on a striped shirt and blow a whistle. As we all know it's not that easy. I just think that knowing the fouls is one more tool we have in our belt to help us as officials. Heck most of the time they are on the board for us and everyone else in the arena, not to mention the announcer tells the crowd how many that player has and how many team fouls on the offended team after every foul. The score board, which shows the score, time, period, timeouts left, possession arrow, team fouls and player's number and number of fouls isn't just there so the fans have that information, it is there for us too. Why not use it? We do so to communicate when the next foul will be the bonus or double bonus. Why not for when the next foul will be a players fifth? All this information is there for us all we have to do is be aware of it.

I think I might get myself in more trouble here but I'm gonna do it anyway, since I know a few will understand and even agree with me. Here's an example of why knowledge of fouls and knowing your players/match-ups is important. Let's say two teams are playing each other and each has a great center to compete against each other with neither team having a player that comes off the bench to match up against the other teams opposing center. Now imaging if early in the game, let's say 2 minutes in one center gets a foul called on him. Two trips down the floor later the defending post player, who already has one foul, is fronting with no backside help. The guard sees this and lobs the ball into him. As the offensive post tries to get the ball the defender holds him. Not much but just enough to slow him down in getting to the ball. What are you going to call? This is a foul right? What happens if that offensive player still catches the ball and dunks it uncontested? Are you still happy with your call, 2:30 into the game that puts one teams center on the bench and leaves his team helpless to defend the post? Now if he prevents the offensive player from catching the ball, easy call foul. But since he doesn't now you've got a decision to make. If every foul is a foul, then you call a foul and put that teams best player and only chance to defend the post on the bench and say "sorry coach, a foul is a foul and your player fouled him so now he sits" while the coach is screaming at you saying "how is that a foul? how did it affect the play? He caught the ball and dunked it for christs' sake!!!" Now you might even have to T him. But what importance is knowledge of personal fouls? You see all of actions have reactions and coaches do have some knowledge of what is going on and how we affect the game. So the idea that a foul is a foul is a foul isn't a great concept. I'm sure I'm gonna get all kinds of heat for this but here goes.

The day that you <b>stop</b> worrying about what coaches think will be the day that you <b>start</b> learning how to become an official.


Or not....:rolleyes:

I've heard this quote before and it is usually from an official who has been around awhile. I respect veteran officials and listen to what they have to say. Some stuff I use other stuff I don't. But in the case of worrying what coaches think? It's not being worried, its knowing how they are going to react. Just like you know how some partners are going to call the game and you have to adjust for that. Or knowing how players are going to play and you have to adjust for that. The coaches are no different. No two games are the same. And if you think you can go out there and treat every game the same then that is your right. I don't work that way. Different games bring different situation, different match-ups. Just like certain calls bring certain reactions from certain coaches. Knowing your personnel, as we've talked about, is very important. I never said I would anything about worrying about what the coach think. I just know how they will react in certain situation. The more information you have the better you can handle the situation. If you are prepared then you more than ready when these situations arise. Now if you want to say that is worrying about what a coach thinks go ahead. I call it preventative officiating. Some can see situations coming before they happen, and take care of it while others never see them coming and don't know how to handle them when they do.

If the parts in red are matters of consideration for what is a foul for you, I consider this to be problem.

Knowing that a player has 4 fouls or you are cmoing down the stretch in a tight game can provide impetus for consciously-intense focus. I am sure that everyone here is at maximum focus at all times, but the study of psychology dictates otherwise. If I know a player, particularly a star player, has 4 fouls, or we are late in a tight game, I will be conscious of having "high certainty" on every whistle I blow. That means fouls are fouls, but borderline events probably won't be. My intent would be that all whistles in that situation would be pretty obvious to everyone. "High certainty" and not guessing are always our intent and goal, but in these two situations, executinng them is what makes officials great.

BTW, coaches select the post-season officials in every college conference I work. Coaches and AD's also had 100% of the input to selecting playoff officials when I worked HS post-season games. Offiicals not caring about coaches at all is like a playwright not being concerned with theater goers. It may be a noble idea, but you'll starve yourself making what you and your cronies perceive as great works, while "sellouts" wind up on Broadway. Those opinions are not wrong: Bob Dylan did just fine with it. But those are the rare exceptions, not the rule. Think about it. :D

Did you watch the Ohio State/Georgetown Final Four game last season?
Did you see how the officials handled this? That should cover your hypothetical.

Knowledge and protection are two different things. I want to know when a team's next foul is going to put us in the bonus, not sure that translates to prevention from that having. I want to know something like that so I can get our shooter on that foul if necessary. If that is a hard concept to understand, you are right you do need some translation.

Peace

This is when a "patient whistle" comes in handy. See the whole play. If B1's hold doesn't really affect A1's ability to catch and shoot, it's not a foul; by definition it's incidental contact.

And I don't make the decision of whether it's incidental or not based on who has how many fouls, or how good he is, or anything the coach might think.

Okay, now it's my turn to call Bull Sh!t.
I'm not aware of any state that gives coaches and ADs 100% of the decision power on post-season assignments. Perhaps someone else can verify.

Nor was I aware of any college conference who selected their postseason officials this way. But, again, perhaps someone else can verify or discredit this statement.

In the meantime, it doesn't pass my BS detector.

I will work two games tomorrow where I have two coaches and teams that I have some knowledge and history with. It is not necessarily a bad history, but I had one of the teams less than a week ago and they lost. I will also have this team two more times and in less than a week is the first one outside of this tournament. I guarantee you I will discuss this with my partners. It will clearly be apart of our pre-game because I do not want my partner's to be blindsided if a coach goes off about me or because I have this history. There is likely not to be any problems, but they need to know I have had this coach a few times and some of that history. That knowledge is valuable to my partner's and would be to me if I knew a coach and a particular official had some history. That knowledge might help us head off a potential problem later in the game before it has time to stew. This is not different than knowing a coach is a legend and that coach has a history of threatening officials. You might know that coach is full of smoke or that they tend to threaten them during the game so if you T the coach, we (the officials) all know why.

Peace

He did say "college conferences." That is not a state issue. You are probably right that 100% is a little much, but that does not mean it is not close. College programs do have a lot of say in who does and who does not work. After all the conference is made up of schools and they hire the supervisor. If they do not like the way the supervisor of officials handles or hires officials, they find another person that is willing to do the job the way they want to. Usually the conference trusts the job of the supervisor, but there are conferences that have gotten rid of the supervisor because they did not like the officials or the philosophy of hiring and maintaining the staff.

I can speak from experience. I have worked for two people that were eventually fired from what there conferences for that very thing.

Peace

Thank you for that translation. You need to know when the star/valued player has 3 or 4 fouls, so you can tell if the next one puts you in the bonus.
Where did you go to camp to learn that?

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

The only problem here is that you don't understand simple concepts. We've already established that you are a lower level official, by your own admission, so it is evident that you don't understand the concepts being told to you. If you don't want to learn and move up then don't. My call selection isn't the problem, its the fact that no body want to learn the way thinks work in the world of officiating these days. The old concepts and ideas are disappearing. There are new ways of doing things that are studied and used by college officials that can also help high school officials. If you don't want to catch on and learn them then don't, but don't tell us that we are wrong because ou've never heard of them or can't apply them to your game

The real translation
 

I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with you. I have tried to discuss this issue in a very professional manner. It appears that instead you want to try to insult me which suggest that you are not going to accept what I say on its face value. That is fine with me. I am not the one struggling to find my in officiating so I must be doing something right. I think you should attend a camp first because trying to suggest what I do not know or understand. I know who I am and what I am every time I step onto a court or field. I also realize the term “knowledge” is a hard thing to grasp for you. I guess when you work games every foul is a single event and fights happen out of the blue because you want to not have knowledge of previous events or possible future events. So when you T up a coach, you must be blindsided by why he went nuts on you. I guess you see that way of officiating honorable, but I just find it as if you are officiating with blinders on. Everything we have called is going to affect how we are perceived or how coaches and players will react to you or the opponent in the future. And do not think for a second that what coaches think do not change things in your career. You get enough of them that think you are clueless you will be on the outside looking in for a long time even if your supervisor thinks you have it together. Hey, what do I know?

It is clear that your experience is the reason you are unwilling to learn something new. I can see the experience of JR, because he simply rejects the premise and has a reason why. You try to go through smoke and mirrors and suggest I am not explaining the concept very well. Why is JR able to rejected what I am saying on the merits and you cannot? Then again, you have never attended a camp and now I see why that is. And one thing you learn when attending camp is that people will tell you things you do not agree with and it is really not that big of a deal. I realize that trying to make comparisons are hard for someone that has such a closed mind. I would rather you at the very least say you just reject the philosophy than always trying to twist the concept to something you do not understand. Just do what works for you; it does seem to be working very well. :rolleyes:

Peace

You seem like a reasonable fellow. Let me try talking to you in plain language.
Our other esteemed associate answers direct questions by launching off on a tangent in another random direction. When you talk of giving consideration to the one on one match-up and the fact that one player already has one or more fouls when considering the next call, do you not consider that to be giving that player an advantage, or are you telling me that it is an advantage but that is just the way things are/must be/should be done at the "next level?"

I never once said if its a foul but he already has one don't call it. I said according to some here, using the foul is a foul no matter how many a player has or what the situation is, its a foul. My point to all of this was in situation such as this, when you have match ups and a player has a certain number of fouls and his next one will put him on the bench you should, for the good of the game, make sure it is a good foul. Calling a second foul 2 and half minutes into a game on a center who grabs a players arm for a second but doesn't prevent that player from getting to the ball and dunking it is a bad foul call. If he prevent the player from getting the ball its a foul, nothing I can do to help him out. Do we make judgements based on who the player is and what the situation is? Of course we do. If you say we don't then you just don't get it.

And this is your personal philosophy, and having it allows one to advance?
Or this is this system which is adopted by those hoping to advance?

Now he is the MASTER of that. :D

http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...s/starwars.gif

The day that you <b>stop</b> worrying about how coaches react to one of your calls is the day that you <b>start</b> learning how to become an official. Obviously, in your case that day hasn't arrived yet.

You <b>NEVER</b> adjust your play-calling to account for a coach's anticipated reaction. You call the game without worrying about how <b>ANYONE</b> -players, coaches, fans, etc.- will react to one of your calls.

Officiating isn't a popularity contest.

And while you are standing there trying to remember who that is, how many fouls he has, and whether the foul was "good enough," what the heck's going on in the game? Do they all stop while you're calculating all of this?

If it's a foul, blow the damn whistle. End of story.

Yes, Old School, you've told us all about that before. And you're just as believable with your new <i>nom de net</i>.

And the fatal flaw in your logic is assuming that maybe some previous fouls <b>weren't</b> good fouls.

If you're calling a game consistently, evenly and fairly with regards to illegal contact, there is no reason in the world to know when any player has four fouls.

Don gets it.:)

Some officials think themselves into trouble.

We? Who is "we"?

The problem is that you're presenting <b>your</b> opinion only. That's fine. No problem with that. Everybody is entitled to present their own <b>opinion</b>. Do <b>not</b> try to equate your <b>opinion</b> as being commonly accepted by anybody else though. In my experience, it isn't. Do <b>not</b> try to intimate that your <b>opinion</b> is <b>fact</b> either. In my experience, it's about as far from being a fact as you can get.

Agree. You can use the knowledge of knowing that the next foul will put a team in the bonus. But.....the knowledge of whether a player has four fouls is completely different and unrelated. That type of knowledge is useless imo. And I have yet to read anything in this thread that tells me where knowing how many fouls any player has at any particular time has any possible value to an official. Saying "make it a good foul" simply leaves the wrongful impression that previous fouls may not have been "good fouls". I'd rather try to make <b>ALL</b> fouls "good fouls".

If the arrow (that everyone can see) is pointing blue, and you know that it's red's turn for the AP throw-in, then when you are voicing who's ball it is, you really should be explaining why you're not following the device that is used for all participants to see who gets the next ball.

See my first post in this thread.

I don't think you care that disqualified players still play after their 5th foul.

I did, and it still didn't answer the question. So, please humor me.....

What mistakes can you prevent by knowing that a player has four fouls?

OK, I see where you're coming from. Now how do you stop the same scorer from making the exact same mistake when he's supposed to tell you that a player has 4 fouls?

What's the difference between having the scorer tell you when a player has four fouls versus having the scorer tell you when the player has five fouls if they're not going to do so correctly in <b>both</b> cases? In both cases, if they screw-up, you'll still have to straighten it out. A scorer who forgets to tell you when a player has five fouls is just as likely imo to forget to tell you when a player has four fouls.

And....... if they don't screw-up, then you don't need the information at four.

The only foolproof method imo is to mentally keep track of every foul committed by every player of both teams. Well, I certainly ain't that smart. I'll leave it up to the scorer and hope that they get it right.

Btw, just for the record I've never figured out how to stop timing errors either.:)

Pardon me for interupting, but I have a question for TD21.

How do you know your partners are not adjusting their games for the way you call a game? What about the players that you have officiated before, but with a different partner. You adjust your game to a different partner. Isn't consistensy being distorted at this point?

Are there three teams playing? :confused: When does white ever get the ball?

Ok, carry on. :D

So you are expecting me to believe that in a three official game every foul call you and your partners made was a good call? Wow, guess some guys never make bad calls. I don't know about you guys but I know when I make a bad call or a call that doesn't fit the game. I am aware of it and I can admitt it. If you can't then you have a problem in the fact that you think you are always right. If you were you would be working that big tourney in March, and even those guys get some wrong. I don't understand how you can sit here and say when whatching guys working on tv, that they get stuff wrong but you don't. I'm sure you are going to say "when did I say I don't get plays wrong?" But you are assuming here that you don't when you say that "And the fatal flaw in your logic is assuming that maybe some previous fouls weren't good fouls." That you never think you make a bad call.

JR,

Once again, if it does not work for you that is fine with me. It works well for me and has for years.

I like to know everything I can about the game. It prepares me for all kinds of events and I can answer questions long before they are asked and deal with potential problems long before they take place. If you call two fouls in a row on a certain player, the reaction is very likely going to be over the top with many coaches. I also like to know what kind of players are on the floor, so we can focus on what they try to do and what they will take them out of their game when you call certain things. For example, I am working in a tournament with a team I have seen several times. The team is from Chicago and they have a freshman that is considered the best in the state (not my standards, but that is what the media says). Not only did this kid foul out from what I remember, but we have to stay on top of the team setting many illegal screens and causing possible off-ball illegal contact. This team was also by far the better team and it was a focus of our crew not to let them just manhandle the less talented team. The coach of this team is one of the most class guys I have ever been around and he clearly keeps things in perspective and never complained, but he did ask a couple of questions about their aggressiveness. If that had been another coach, they might have flipped their lid or accused the crew of calling things that would take them out of their game. I would like to know that so I have an answer for when I or the crew is confronted with that claim or questions about the way the game is being called.

If that is not how you officiate the game, then be my guest and do not do it that way. I personally do not care either way. I like to know these things and knowledge does not change how I call the game. I call the game based on the players and adjust to their style when and if necessary, but I do not pass on fouls that need to be called just because we have certain players. I honestly do not know what else to tell you. But to be accused of protecting people is not only a lie, but shows that someone is not reading what is being said and trying to put their own spin on the comments.

I worked a game a week ago where the star sat much of the game because I personally called two very quick fouls on him. Believe me, the coach went nuts. His reaction did not change my game. I just was prepared to deal with his reaction. I really do not know why that is hard to understand?

Peace

People always talk about consistency. Why? If I get a block charge wrong on one end am I going to come down and get it wrong on the other end just to be consistent? Two wrongs don't make a right. As for partners.......I talk about match-ups and finding who our players are in pregame. I never talk about philosophy because some guys just don't officiate the same way and it would be pointless to get into an arguement with them over it. As for adjusting to what your partners are calling, you have to see what they are doing and do the best you can. I he wants to call two bad fouls on a player in a row to sit him, that's on him. That's not saying if a coach goes crazy and needs to be dealt with I won't deal with it. And that doesn't mean I afraid to call fouls on certain players becuase I don't want to get yelled out. I am just in the camp that quality calls are always better and that is definitely true when we are dealing with fifth fouls and other situation that affect the game. If we could always be right then it wouldn't matter, but unfortunately we aren't. Some guys are better at getting more plays right than others. Each play is a single act, and each act is put together into the game. What happens in each act affects all the other acts. That's why remembering plays and knowing what you called where, when and on who helps you to make those decisions later in the game. We can't treat every play as a single act that is just a single event not part of something bigger.