Funny thing you said that. I know an official that worked one of the high profile "March" games and admitted that one of his partners was having a bad game and based on a couple of events went into the tank. And these are all officials that are pretty high profile and many onlookers would think these guys were almost infallible. Not only does it happen at that level, it definitely happens with officials at our levels. I know I made a few mistakes during the course of the games I had yesterday. I was saved because one of the coaches knows me and likes the way I call the game, but I would like to have one call back without a doubt. And later in that game I wanted to make sure that if I was going to call a foul on this particular player, that I was a little better the next time.

I really do not see why that is hard to understand.

Peace

I know I'm late to this conversation, but I've gone through a couple of stages on this topic. First, I used to notice the lopsided foul count and start looking for fouls to call on the other team. After all, over a season, fouls are usually pretty even amongst teams, right? So if the foul count is uneven, we must be doing something wrong, right? Wrong. Team foul counts are affected by such things as style of play, talent level, and the teams they are playing (rivalries, etc.). If the crew is calling the game the right way, the foul counts are where they should be, even if they are 8 - 0 at some point. Then I moved on to the "I don't care what the count is" phase. I tried to ignore the count so it wouldn't affect the calls I made. Since then, I've figured out game awareness is a big deal. Being aware of when the clock starts and stops, knowing the table set the arrow the proper direction, knowing which direction the arrow is pointing so you don't have to look away from the players during the scrum, knowing who the better players are so you're aware of what the team is trying to do; all of these things add up to game awareness. Knowing the foul count is important because I want to know if we will be shooting the bonus, and I need to be able to find the shooter. If the foul count is "uneven", I better know why - is one team driving more while the other is shooting jump shots from the outside? Maybe, just maybe, we are missing something as a crew; perhaps we've called illegal screens on one team and the other is running a similar offense, so have we missed anything? Not to call something that isn't there, not to "even things up", but to be aware of why the count isn't even.

I agree with everything you have said. Just know that others will say that it is your opinion and not a fact that this helps you as an official. I find it humorous that the official who use this knowledge find it helpful while those that don't find it useless. Is that the same reason my grandma think computers are a waste of time?

Someone can read.
 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace

So if the next foul doesn't put him on the bench, and maybe if his opponent has more fouls than he has, it isn't necessary for this one to be a "good foul?"

I suppose this would also be "good for the game."

You are just adding your own spin on what I'm saying. I never said anything about calling fouls that didn't happen, or not calling fouls that did happen. I'll play your game for a minute. Do you know when you make a bad call? Do you know when you can pass on a play that could have gone either way? Do you understand simple concepts such as a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole?

Often the reason that a foul count is uneven is obvious. But, sometimes, there simply is no reason. I have no problem with any official being aware of the team foul count. I do have a problem with an official who is overly concerned about it for the wrong reasons, which have all been beaten to death here. But on the occasion when the foul count is 9-2 in a game where teams are playing similar styles and seem to be evenly matched, we must simply play on and let the foul count take care of itself. I once heard an official remark,
(okay, it was me) "This calling seems one-sided to me, and I'm one of the guys calling it." We must resist the urge to even it up.

Knowing the information, and what you do with that information, are what's important. There are officials that will see the lopsided foul count, and all of a sudden there 3 quick fouls on the team that is behind. It's possible that team fouled 3 times, but more than likely the less-experienced crew was just trying to make it even in their minds. Unfortunately, that just lowers the crew's credibility even more than the lopsided count.

I've also been told by a couple of very experienced officials that if we know the "star" player has 4 fouls, and that player appears to have committed their 5th, that I should give it to one of their teammates who's close by. :confused: I'm not good enough to be able to make that distinction on a reaction call (especially with all the other crap floating around in my head...). Besides, tell me how that helps our credibility that we charge a foul to a player that we know did not commit a foul? Now, if I know white 34 has 4 fouls, I'm more prepared if that 5th foul happens, so I can make sure we don't start the game before taking care of business. But I'm not going to change what I call, or how I call it, based on the information.

So, TD21, I assume you just haven't shown your grandma the wonders of the internet yet? :D

Nobody said anything about calling fouls that didn't happen. That, at least is a good thing agreed upon by all. But when you refer to "making sure that it is a good foul," this is when the trouble starts. If you say that the second or third foul "must be a good foul" because it will put a guy on the bench, this insinuates that it was not necessary for the first one to be a "good foul." As for being aware of a bad call when you make it, sure, sometimes you have one that looks bad in retrospect. Could that affect my next call in the same borderline situation? Possibly, but not because of the fact that it is on a star player. Does a square peg fit in a round hole? No, but if the hole is big enough, you can hide a bunch of squares and other inconsistent shapes in it and try to convince people that they fit.

So, TD21, I assume you just haven't shown your grandma the wonders of the internet yet? :D[/QUOTE]

Sometimes you just gotta say, "you're right" and move on. I'm not sure I'd have the time or patience to show her how to work it or she'd every really understand everything it could help her with. She got through life to this point without it. Why teach her something new. After all it probably would just be useless information that she wouldn't need anyway.

Untrue - the reason could be...gasp...one team committed more fouls than the other?!? :eek:

As long as we know that, we do know the reason. Just don't let the coach surprise you with that fact. If you missed knowing the count, there might be a chance you missed a foul (or two). If you are already aware and have a reason, the coach might be more willing to accept that you are on top of things and probably didn't miss anything.

I think you are starting to get it a little.........We've got you to admit that sometimes you make a bad call. good. what scares me is instead of finding the peg that fits in the hole you'd rather put something in there that doesn't and convince people it does. So I guess you can make a call that doesn't fit and convince a coach that that is in fact what happened. But since your calls aren't wrong, they just sometimes "might" look bad, I guess you are good at convincing people that what you have done is correct, it just looks really bad. Guess you are good at hiding the "inconsistencies" in your game.

Yep. I guess that is just bad communication on your part. :rolleyes:

I have been told the very same thing. I have never done that and never will.

Another statement I agree with. I just do not want to make that a really cheap foul that we have not called the rest of the game. Usually that does not happen, but it can if you are not aware from my point of view. The opposite of knowledge is ignorance. I do not want to be caught by surprise because I am not aware of a situation.

Peace

But they told me that having that knowledge doesn't help you in the game it only hurts you and brings baggage you don't want. Are you telling me that you use information to help you prevent other situations that may occur? Can't you just tell the coach "coach, i don't know what the foul count is and I don't care, I call it how I see it"?

You got me there. Hard to argue with that one.

The main thing is not to act surprised. "Mr. Ref, we have 11 fouls and they have 3." "Yes, Coach, and your point is?"

Whether you know the count or not, there is an excellent chance that you missed some fouls on both teams. I don't know what you mean by this.

Hey, aren't you supposed to be on the court instead of playing on the internet?!? :eek:

I used to say that, it does not work very well. They just get mad and upset with you over what they are already thinking. Usually an answer of "Coach, you are not playing the same zone as they are..." usually shuts them up. They realize you are into the game and you realize what is going on and they either move on or keep making an issue which leads to them getting a T. Most coaches do not like to give Ts that only make an already bad situation worse. If that works for JAR, then more power to him.

Peace

This was a reference to your philosophy, not mine.

You said it not me. You can't say something and then tell someone that it is their philosophy. Its like blowing your whistle and telling the coach that your partner called it not you.

My games are not until 6:00 and 9:00. I might drive over to Pontiac for the afternoon. I am actually a little bored.

Peace

Yeah, it does.

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thu...round_hole.jpg

There are many officials that are at the level where that knowledge becomes baggage. For them, the better option is to use that response, instead of thinking about foul counts and worrying about why things aren't even. But as you progress, you will see that the knowledge becomes important for other reasons.

Actually, Jeff, he said both. Here's his quote again:
He clearly claims that his high school experience was coaches and ADs having 100% of the say in post season officiating assignments.

Who else chooses? Anyone who chooses is directly accountable to coaches and AD's. One coach has a personal issue with you and wants you scratched? Happens to almost everyone. Five do? You have some self-evaluation to do, or you'll be staying home and losing games.

Classic OS post.

Say something that is demonstrably untrue, and when called out, revise history and try to convince us you meant something totally different.

Either that or you truly don't understand what you're talking about. 100% would mean coaches have total control. I'm willing to bet this doesn't happen anywhere.

Because, IMHO, you ruin the game otherwise. Players are playing the game, players adjust, and coaches coach their players to adjust...thats the game. There are a lot of things to adjust to, but adjusting is part of *their* game. The lines on the court are consistent, they don't move. The height of the basket doesn't move. Your judgment of what is a charge is based on what you see: it is what it is. I (a coach) may disagree, I may think you need to go back to ref school, your partner may see things different, you may be taking a big move out of my star player that got us to this "big game"....well, maybe we can all analyze that after the game.

In the meantime, during the game we do the adjusting, we change our lineup, our D, our matchups, we cry, we yell, we do the human stuff. Like the same I ask from the ball, don't get all gestalt on me...you are human (of course ;-) you make mistakes, yeah, don't remind me! Be consistent and let me think you are a robot that has no emotions, that doesn't know this is a big game, don't care our star is in big foul trouble, etc...The gestalt ref may be the new wave though. You saythese concepts are taught in camps? Interesting, very interesting...

Huh..:eek: Me confused...

Whatinthell has knowing how many fouls a <b>PLAYER</b> has have to do with "game awareness"? :confused:

You're talking about a whole different topic than that.

Yes, it's fine to know how many team fouls each <b>TEAM</b> has. Yes, it's equally fine to also know the reasons behind a disparate foul count. Doodah doodah. Those are basics that can be labeled "game awareness".

But <b>AGAIN</b>.....none of that has a damn thing to do with having to know when any <b>PLAYER</b> on the court has four fouls. I defy anyone to give me a good reason for possessing that particular tidbit of knowledge if the game is being called fairly, evenly and equally. And believe me, so far nobody has even come close imo to having a good reason for their having to absolutely know when any <b>PLAYER</b> has accumulated four fouls.

Lah me.....Reading is fundamental. :rolleyes:

I thought I already answered that:
Whatinthehell does the Camptown Races have to do with this? :confused:

I agree. (Lah me.) :D

Please explain. You're preparing to do exactly what? What would you do differently if you knew that the player had 5 fouls before the scorer informed you that, yes, the player had 5 fouls? And exactly <b>why</b> do you need that preparation anyway? What good exactly is the information about a player having 4 fouls to an official if you're not going to change the way that you've been calling the game?

Inquiring minds need to know.

I have had several tables tell us after we've put the ball in play that white 34 had 5 fouls. This makes us look bad as a crew, so if there's anything I can do to avoid looking bad (well, ok, there's nothing I can do about my looks, but you know what I mean :rolleyes:), I will do it. As far as what I do differently, if I know white 34 has just committed their 5th, I may wait an extra moment at the table until they notify me, or, I may even ask them if that's #34's 5th. Most of the time the table realizes it is the 5th, and I've avoided putting the ball in play too early. There was one time I thought it was the player's 5th, asked the table, and the scorer told me, "Nope, it was their 4th". Put the ball in play, the other team was dribbling up the court, (no FT's, thank goodness), and the table hits the horn. The scorer was apologizing left and right (literally; he was apologizing to both benches), and we got the player out and the game re-started without a problem.

Obviously, the better the table crew, the less likely I need to worry about this. But it has just become a bit of a habit I've picked up to avoid a possible messy situation.

I completely understand your thinking on this, but what amazes me is how several people have claimed that this has happened enough times to make them concerned about it.

This is my 5th year officiating. I can recall only once, and that was a MS game, where we actually got the ball in play before being notified of 5 fouls...I guess I'm just lucky! :D

I think the moral of this story is if you ever have a game where White 34 is a prominent player, you might want to pay attention to how many fouls this player accumulates; because scorers statewide (in Illinois anyway) have a problem keeping track of white #34.

Remember, it's always different in Illinois.

:p

I'm gonna try this one last time and if it doesn't work then I'll just move on. First, who decides what is included in "game awareness"? You just said knowing that the foul counts are uneven is a part it. What if someone else were to come along and say it didn't matter? Who's right? Moving on............let me see if I can find out what is important to know and what isn't. Let's start simple, who the head coach is for each team? Important? Sure that way we know who can and cannot address the officials or stand and coach. Which direction each team is going? Sure, that way we know if a team scores at the wrong basket or which way to point when we give a color when the ball goes out of bounds. Good so far? Time on the clock? Now let's talk about some areas where there might be disagreement..........Possession arrow and time on the game clock? I think those are important, but I've also seen people hear argue that you should rely on the table to have the arrow correct and give you that information when needed. What happens when you have a timing error and the table can't help you? Oops if you would have been aware of the time you could have fixed the error, but instead you relied on that the table crew. Who are they gonna blame? The table? Not likely, its on you. Are you going to trust that same table with the arrow. Go ahead, why not? How about figuring out what the teams are running? Good I think so you can be ready for what is coming. If you know where they like to run a certain play and they set up into it then you can already be in position to officiate the play. Number of team fouls? Sure, it let's us know when the next foul is the bonus or double bonus so we don't look stupid and try to put the ball in play. But if we rely on the table they'll let us know its the bonus. After all we've never seen a crew put the ball in play only to have the horn buzz to let the officials they are suppose to be shooting free throws. Rely on that table! Knowing team fouls can also be helpful at the ends of close games too. If a team has fouls to give before the bonus knowing that can help us with the end of game situation. What else? This is getting long so I'll post it and continue after I get a few responses. I'm sure the question is coming on how any of this relates to knowing each plays foul count.

You answered every question except the one that he asked.

JR, why are you so AGAINST officials knowing that a player has 4 fouls?? I want to be aware of lots of things - how many time-outs a team has left. Whether a team has used all their 30 second time-outs. How many team fouls each team has. Do any of the players have 4 fouls. I like to know all of that stuff...like M&M said, it absolutely does NOT affect the way I call the game, but if I know these things, then my crew doesn't look like bozos when we ask the coach "Is that a full or 30, Coach?" and the coach snaps back "All I have are fulls!" and when the 5th foul is called, it doesn't take us by surprise and we are ready to handle that situation because we already knew the kid had four...why is that such a bad thing to you??:confused:

If you think that knowing who the head coach is, what direction the teams are going, what the time is on the clock who has the possession arrow, what the teams are running and how many team fouls are all a part of "game awareness" then how is knowing how many fouls a player has not important? Its another piece of information that we have. It has been pointed out several times that knowing that a players next fouls is 5 and he is disqualified can save you any problems that might arise if the table fails to notify you. Now why else is it important? Because you never want to foul a player out with a cheap foul! I don't know what word or term you want me to use so you understand it. I've said marginal, cheap, ticky tac, 50/50, yet they all have the same affect. People say you are changing the way you're calling the game. No I'm not. I'm just being aware of what is going on and what the reaction of my action is. If I call a fifth foul on a player he is going to the bench and not coming back. That is true whether it is an obvious, everyone in the gym saw it or wrong call in which the official closed his eyes and guessed. Which makes more sense for us to want to happen? That's not to say that fouls 1 thru 4 aren't just as important because they are, but that 5th one is very important and it carries with it, whether we like it or not and lot more reaction from players fans and coaches. Now we can say who cares? But we all care, and it we are right and know we are right we can defend everything we have done and deal with the reactions of the coach or player as needed, if we are wrong then I hope you can atleast stand there and take the heat, because if you have to throw the coach because you made a bad call that put his best player on the bench, then you have even more problems to deal with. Now you might not have to worry about your actions in middle school games, junior varsity games and even some high school varsity games, but I can promise you in some high school games and in college there is accountability for our actions. And the best part is it is all on the tape from the game. They will look and they will decide if you were right or right with your foul call and whether you were justified in your handling of the situation. I'm sure that this response still isn't good enough for some as to why knowledge of fouls is important. I'm sure I'll still hear the old, stop worrying about what coaches think and you shouldn't change the way you call the game. So I'm done. I've given you my reasoning and that's all I can do. Use it if you want but you certainly don't have to. If you've gotten to where you want to go as an official or if doing it the way you have has worked for you then stay with it. At the end of the day is all about what works best for you.

Yup, You sureashell got that right. Your post above has got absolutely dick-all to do with what I've been saying.

Let me say it again- for the last time. There is NO advantage for any official to know when a player has four fouls. The same mistake can be made by the scorer at that point as well as when the player hits five fouls. If you call that "game awareness", then tell me what good that "game awareness" information is to you. I asked for anybody to give me a reasonable reason if they think that there is an advantage to knowing when a player has four fouls. I'm still waiting for one. And none of your irrelevant gobbledeygook above has got anything at all to do with the question that you're so fervently avoiding either.

If you can't answer that specific question, then yes, you should move on.

Are you really telling me that you aren't ready to handle the situation when the bench tells you that a player has five fouls if you didn't already know that they had four? Bull pucky! You'd handle it exactly the same way whether you knew or you didn't know. And if the scorer has made a mistake on the foul count somewhere, it will show up on the fourth or the fifth foul anyway, so you're gonna have to deal with it-no matter what.

Some information is useful and I never have said any thing differently. That particular bit of information about a player having four fouls just isn't useful though imho.

who cares? Not me.

When you <B>stop</b> worrying about what the players, fans and coaches think, you'll <b>start</b> to become a better official.

I think the problem here is I'm not coming at the topic form a high school, junior varsity or middle school mentality. I'm coming at it form a college mentality and above. So if you think it has "NO advantage" then good for you. It is a very big advantage in the leagues I work and saves me a lot of problems. So if you want to use the foul is a foul philosophy and think that not worrying about the coaches and how they might react is the way to go, then good for you. You've been doing this much longer than I have so I'm sure you know a lot more than I. I just know what works for me, what has gotten me hired and what is keeping me working. I was only trying to share that with people here but if what I am saying is not wanted then I will stop. If we don't want to take responsibility for our actions I guess we don't have to. "Coach its not responsibility to know how many fouls your player has. I just call it like I see it and even if I'm wrong its not really my fault, I guess he shouldn't have gotten those other 4 before that one."

Just curious, is this your opinion or fact? What makes an official good? His abilities? The games he works? How do you separate the good from the bad? Or is not worrying about what people think the only requirement?

I'm not saying you're right or wrong on wanting to know when a player has 4, but the above quote has absolutely zero to do with it. A player's foul count is not our responsibility...but all our calls are, and we should be ready to accept that regardless.

This sure is a long way to spell "condescending."

1) Sooooooo..... you think that I'm coming at this from a lower level (to you) mentality. Cool. Well, that's your <b>opinion</b>. My <b>opinion</b> is that your posts to date using your "college level and above" mentality have generally been lacking sadly in the areas of actual knowledge and application. And I hate to break it to you but just saying that you are posting something that is backed by a "college level and above mentality" doesn't really make any statement true. However, what do I know anyway? Please free to post your resume though. I'll be sure to let you know if I'm suitably impressed with it.

2) Yup, very big advantage. Feel free to mention sometime exactly <b>what</b> the very big advantages of knowing a player has four fouls are. And what the problems are that are being saved with that knowledge. Lord knows I've asked you enough times. I'm just here to learn, same as everybody else. If I learn enough, maybe some day I'll have one of them college mentalities and above too.

Don't forget "travel insurance".

Can you not read? I have already told you, given you examples and then told you again! Am I becoming a little condesending, as someone noted earlier? Yes! I guess I don't understand why your way is right and mine isn't? What facts do you have to back up your claims? Tell me, factually, how you know that I lack knowledge and applications of the rules. Tell me, factually, how my statements aren't true. Tell me why I would care if you were impressed with my resume? Have I asked you to post yours so that I know you in fact are who you say you are? Didn't think so. So now come out with the old, well you said you worked this and that yet you won't say the names of the conference and back it with facts. I don't need to. Now I'm gonna get real condesending. If you don't want to go to camp and learn the 2007 way of doing things then don't! But don't sit here and tell me what is right and what is wrong. If you want me to back up my claims with facts, back up yours. I'm waiting.

Sorry, I have to agree with Rocky.

Know the time on the game clock and the shot clock. Know which way the arrow's pointing. Know the foul count for each team. Know the score. Know if there are subs at the table. Know who's in the game & their tendencies. Know how reliable the table people are. Know how many TOs each team has. Know whatever there is to know about the game you are working, including when players are in foul trouble.

It's all part of the job. No one's saying to use any of that information to not call the best game possible. We're saying being completely aware of the game you are working will enable you to call the best game possible.

Since Jurassic isn't here let me post for him! Show me the facts! I agree that all those things can be useful except how many fouls a player has. I don't have any facts to back up my claims that everything else can be useful but I know for a fact that you don't have the knowledge or the ability to apply the rules! Show me the facts, post your resume and then maybe I'll believe you. I'm actually just saying that, because I will never believe you because that means I'd have to change my ideas of what's right. And I'm always right because you can't show me the facts!

Although we can always play games, look on Page 38 on this handbook for one of the high school leagues where I used to work. The officials association assigns officials for tournament game per input from the coaches involved. One coach picks one, the other coach picks the other. While I am certain that you will find exceptions to this in other areas, it is accepted at HS and college levels that coaches and AD's have virtually full control with respect to who works their games. HS State and NCAA tournaments may have different bodies for those specific events, but even for D-1 non-conference games the schools have the input per the game contracts.

http://www.seattleschools.org/area/a...ndbook0405.pdf

:D

Of course I'm not saying that...but I have been in games where that horn and "That's five on 42" caught me completely by surprise. I don't like that kind of surprise in my games...can you tell me why knowing/being aware that players have four fouls is a BAD thing??? I don't think you can (other than saying it affects the way someone calls the game, but I've already said it doesn't for me so you can't say that again so nyah-nyah). It's an opinion thing, and you know what they say about opinions!:p

reviewed the whole thread......
 

If I am not mistaken Juggling Ref is the only one who said he likes to be notified by the table when a player has 4 fouls. The theory is that he will be prepared when the player picks up his 5th, and will not accidentally allow this disqualified player to remain in the game. He assures us that this information has no effect on the call itself. Fine, I take his word for all this and admire his good intention to go above and beyond and get everything right. First, what level of ball are we talking about here? You refer a couple of times to kids or teenagers as the scorekeepers. And here was the part that I found interesting:





Are you saying that you have yet to see the crew that can't handle the task of notifying about the 4th foul, yet you have seen a "high number of cases" where they failed to notify you of the 5th? Or did I take something out of context?
__________________

News flash. I never claim anything like "college and above" to back up my own personal opinion. I don't believe in it. Resumes don't mean squat to me. And I've always found that most people that feel the need to cite their own resumes either don't really possess those credentials anyway.... or they don't have a clue.

Aw geeze, reading is fundamental.

I didn't disagree with most of the above. Aamof I agree with most of it and have already said so. I still don't agree with one small part of it--that you need to know when a player has four fouls. What I want to know is how that little tidbit of information is going to help me <b>"call the best game possible"</b>. Soooooooo, you tell me , Dan.....how is knowing that a player has four fouls going to help me call the best game possible? Exactly what am I supposed to do <b>differently</b> with that knowledge when I get it?

For the record, I never said that it was a bad thing. I said that it's useless information. If it's not going to affect the way that you call the game, then <b>why</b> do you need to know it anyway? I'm still waiting for that question to be answered by someone.

And what exactly is wrong with being surprised when you find out that a player has five fouls btw?:confused: What difference does it really make, one way or t'other, when you're informed by the bench?

Nope, put it down that I'm coming at this from a......wait for it........ college and above mentality.

Works for me too.:)

I don't see where the problem is having knowledge of whether a player has 4 fouls. I think the problem that JR and many of us have is when the poster stated that he wanted the table to notify him when a player has 4 fouls. IMO, nothing GOOD comes from that notification, perception wise. If the table is doing their job then they would will notify you when the player has 5 fouls. That's why you usually have the official scorer, as well as the visiting team scorer at the table. One of those guys are going to make sure the officials are notified when a player has 5 fouls.

There are many ways an official can know how many fouls a player has without being "NOTIFIED" (exception 5th foul). You have the PA announcer announcing the players fouls, you or your partner may be on the table side and hear the table (either scorer) telling the coaches that's "so many" fouls on so and so, shoot you can hear the assistant or somebody else on the bench tell the head coach that's 4 on so and so. But to have the the offical scorer notify you that a player has 4 fouls shouldn't be one of those ways of knowing. Again, my .02.

This has already been answered by others, so I'll try it another way.

There are lots of bits of information that we carry with us that don't necessarily help us call a better game. For instance, when I work a game I make sure I say hello to the security person and that I know who has the locker room key. Does any of this let me do anything differently? No. Do I feel better having this information? Yes.

So now here's a question for you: what do YOU do differently by NOT knowing a player's foul status? There's gotta be something of value to you in so stubbornly ignoring a basic part of the game.

1) If you feel better knowing when a player has four fouls, then good for ya. Seriously. But, again, my point is that particular piece of information is still extraneous and unnecessary to the way that you're going to officiate the game. You admitted to that above too btw- highlighted in red.

2) I don't do <b>ANYTHING</b> differently whether I know a player has four fouls or not. Neither do you. And that's my point. Whatinthehell good is the information to me? Or to you really, other than making you feel better? It might be a basic part of the game, but only as that basic part relates to the player who has four fouls and his team. It doesn't really mean squat to any basic part of the game that relates to us officials(or shouldn't anyway).

You say I admitted this as if you've trapped me into admitting I'm the one who blew up that Bhutto woman or designed the 12 foot tiger exhibit walls at the SF zoo. All I'm saying is it's a part of the game so I make it my business to keep track of it. Of course it relates to us as officials. A player with 4 fouls (or even 2 in the first half) will usually play defense differently. You already agreed with me that we should know the team and player tendencies. So you'll have to agree that there's value in knowing when a player might tend to be less aggressive on defense because he wants to stay in the game.

Seems pretty simple to me.

Yes, the four fouls is maybe going to make the player play differently. The key word is "maybe". However, the fact that the player has four fouls is <b>not</b> going to make Dan officiate any differently. Or other officials like Dan. Ergo, the fact that the player now has four fouls is not going to really mean diddlysquat to Dan. Dan is gonna continue making the same calls at both ends that he has made all game. Dan is <b>not</b> going to <b>anticipate</b> that the player is going to back off on defense. Instead, Dan simply is going to react to what actually happens.

At least I think that's what Dan will do. If I'm wrong, feel free to castigate me for predicting what you would do. I've got a thick skin; I can take it.

You might feel that the player will be less aggressive, and he certainly might be, but you still have to be ready to call the same foul on him that you've been calling all game. Your officiating pattern will not change. And if you're not changing your officiating pattern, what possible good is going to come out of having the knowledge that a player does have four fouls?

Note that my reasoning comes from a mentality that is higher than "college and above" too.

Unfortunately a response to the OP's question regarding pre-game table talk included a suggestion that the scorer should notify the crew when a player has 4 fouls. Whether this information is useless or not seems somewhat of a personal preference. How the official gets this information might be what sours the whole discussion. Any kind of open communication with an official about the number of fouls a player has, unless it's his/her 5th, can not IMO be recommended. I can't give an example of how this would be detremental because I've never had anyone tell me that's the players 4th, but I can see where a coach from either side might not perceive this to be something we need to know.

Good, we agree.

Everything else in your post is just Woddy being stubborn.

A wise official once said "When you stop worrying about what the players, fans and coaches think, you'll start to become a better official".

In fact he said it in this thread.

Same wise official also said this 4th foul information is totally useless. :p

Your point, taken.

However, I will never suggest a scorer tell me when a player has 4. I will know without being told. Then I won't have to worry and can start to become a better official.

You just said it's useless information if it's not going to affect the way you call the game. So time on the clock, possession arrow, number of team fouls, who your shooter is, are all useless pieces of information? Now explame that one to me!

Its on the freakin' score board for the whole gym to see!!!!!!!

The only reason I said that was because so many people here who work only high school and below, which there is nothing wrong with, hadn't heard this before. My assumption then was that maybe its something that is only used at college and above. I personally use it in any game I work including if I were to go work a 3rd grade rec game. Its the way I officiate. But since most officials hadn't heard it, I said that I approach it from where I learned it. That wasn't a knock on anyway that doesn't work college basketball. There is a lot of informationtaught at camps by a lot of great officials out there. You would be suprised at what you could learn.

Relax Francis.

My only point is about the direct verbal communication of the players 4th foul from the scorer to an official, okay? And that was when I was worried about the coaches perception. Which, btw, I am not doing any more so I can start to become a better official.

Oh yeah, I forgot that obvious way of knowing how many fouls a player has. Worked a gym a couple weeks ago where they had all the players numbers and fouls on the board for each team. With all those numbers, it looked like something you would see at the dog or horse track.

Why? :confused: I thought that you knew everything anyway, being from the Land of College and Above.

Was going to abandon this thread as I tend to get bored reading threads that reach a thousand responses, but I will reply directly.

Prior to me asking for notice on the 4th, I had a number of cases where a 5th foul was recorded on someone and the play was already live again before the table crew could tell the on-court crew that so-and-so had fouled out. I didn't like this - it happened too often for my liking. As a coach, it would infuriate me to know that a DQ'd player was still playing. Frankly, IMHO, the officials are paid to get this stuff right.

I started to ask for 4th foul notice. For the most part, I do hear this notice. I even tell them how to tell me that so-and-so has 4 fouls. (Hold up 4 fingers.) My pre-game talk with the table goes well, and I am sure to make them laugh and learn their names.

I also make it a point to tell them that they have done their job well, and that the 4 of us (or 5) are one team. In some cases, I have even told my assignor or tournament director. I do this because way back in my HS years, I was a scorer and timer. I know that they would appreciate it if they did a good job and they heard about it afterwards.

Okay, to summarize: The awareness of the 4th foul, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. As many have pointed out, the information is usually there, one way or the other, so everybody knows it. But, the only possible good that I can see is intervening if the table is late catching the 5th, and how often does this happen? It might rain, and the roof might leak, but I ain't bringing a bucket to put under it. On the other hand, if an official makes a point of noting the 4th foul, he subconsciously may give the player some slack, or, depending on the player, may have a tendency to lean the other way. (That's 5, you arrogant little turd!) Any communication of the 4th on any player from the table or between officials, in my opinion, is bound to cause people from both sides to assume the worst. (They're protecting him! They're trying to get him out!) When you bring the quality of the individual player into the equation, this is where it becomes totally unacceptable to me. Also, when we talk about stars, this sometimes dives into a murky area. The best teams, in my experience, are often the ones that do not even have a true star. Rather, they may win with balance or a different star every night. Based on some posts in this thread, I find it conceivable to take one's "college awareness game management mentality":rolleyes: to the game, and realize in the second half that "We've been protecting the wrong player."

Okay, to summarize: Thinking for yourself = bad. Parroting what the loudest and most voluminous poster's think = good.

Thank goodness we got that sorted out. :rolleyes:

Yup, that's what different between this forum and the paid side of this site. Over here you'll hear about it when you write crap.:)

And I still say that no one has given me a good reason to NOT know when someone has 4 fouls...so I will continue being aware of that along with all the other stuff I try to be aware of.

EXACTLY!!!!!!! I have been working games the last few days, but this thread has still being entertaining. I tried to have as much knowledge about the key players and their foul situations and I did not call the game one time any different than I did when I did not know the information. And whatever I do must be noticed because I am working the Championship game in my tournament in the first year the assignor assigned it based on who he felt were his best officials rather than just geography (before they would allow the people that had the most travel leave earlier). My crew must be doing something right. Oh well, I guess this is just how the internet goes. If you do not do it my way, something is wrong with you.

Peace