If you are the R

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Red = what you have called before

Blue = what you will have to call in the future

The two things do not relate to each other, yet the presence of the first thing affects the possibility of whether to call the second thing. You're right about one thing. I don't get this......at all.

They always relate to each other. Every thing we call/don't call affects what we do next. All the plays and situations that happen go together to form the game. What we do or don't do affects that game. That's why you need to know what you have called previously. Without that information you can't do your entire job correctly. But I understand if this makes no sense to you. If you haven't been taught it or never seen it in action then you wouldn't understand the meaning behind the process. So as JRut say, go to camp and see what the people are teaching. I'm not saying that you need to do this in your games. What I am saying is that you need to do them if you want to move up and do a higher level than you are currently at. And the best part is that it will even help you at the level you are at.

[just another ref]

I am, it seems, a low level official. I am at the level that I choose to work and have no ambition to reach the "next level." This is true even if advancing to the next level does not mean protecting the stars, and throwing fouls at the 10th guy off the bench because nobody cares about him, as insinuated by some here who dwell at higher levels. There are many things that I do not understand from my low level. But one thing that I do understand is that it is difficult to talk down to someone when you are sadly lacking in basic communication skills.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I am, it seems, a low level official. I am at the level that I choose to work and have no ambition to reach the "next level." This is true even if advancing to the next level does not mean protecting the stars, and throwing fouls at the 10th guy off the bench because nobody cares about him, as insinuated by some here who dwell at higher levels.

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking. I bet you believe that the best game is never to be noticed either?

Originally Posted by just another ref

There are many things that I do not understand from my low level. But one thing that I do understand is that it is difficult to talk down to someone when you are sadly lacking in basic communication skills.

You said you have never attended camp. That just boggles the mind that you can be officiating for about 5 years and never attend a camp and I am the one that has a lack of understanding? I find that rather hilarious.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.....if you have 3 or 4 fouls on a player (star player or valued player), you better make that 5th one a good one and not call something you have not been calling the rest of the game or give a cheap one.

This may require a translator between high and low levels officials, but that sounds a lot like protecting the star to me.

[Coach Bill]

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy. Almost invariably, the other coach complains about the differential. And, almost invariably, it gets close to evened up, even though it appears to me that the other team has not decreased their level of fouling and we have not increased our level of fouling. It could be my imagination, though. Just once, I'd like to hear a ref respond, "That's because you're fouling, and they're not". I have to admit that when the foul differential is not in my favor, I'll often point it out as well.

And, I would definitely call a ref on why he needs to know that one of the other team's players has four fouls. To me, it can only mean that he's gonna call fouls for that guy differently.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy. Almost invariably, the other coach complains about the differential. And, almost invariably, it gets close to evened up, even though it appears to me that the other team has not decreased their level of fouling and we have not increased our level of fouling.

Obviously, I've never worked your games.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy.

Why? Do you not recognize that your team may be superior of the other team, or that the other team has been coached incorrectly? You should be not happy if the game is inconsistenly called, but statistically speaking, you will be involved in games with lopsided foul counts. Either play better defense or expect the other team to play better defense. Good teams adapt.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

And, I would definitely call a ref on why he needs to know that one of the other team's players has four fouls. To me, it can only mean that he's gonna call fouls for that guy differently.

What do you think of an official that always knows the status of the arrow? If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow, does it mean that they are calling a held ball differently from occurance to occurance? It's about preventing mistakes.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow........

What does this mean? How do you overrule the visible arrow?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What do you think of an official that always knows the status of the arrow? If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow, does it mean that they are calling a held ball differently from occurance to occurance? It's about preventing mistakes.

If you're not going to call a foul differently from occurrence to occurrence either, then what mistakes can you prevent just by knowing that a player has 4 fouls?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This may require a translator between high and low levels officials, but that sounds a lot like protecting the star to me.

Knowledge and protection are two different things. I want to know when a team's next foul is going to put us in the bonus, not sure that translates to prevention from that having. I want to know something like that so I can get our shooter on that foul if necessary. If that is a hard concept to understand, you are right you do need some translation.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.....if you have 3 or 4 fouls on a player (star player or valued player), you better make that 5th one a good one and not call something you have not been calling the rest of the game or give a cheap one.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Knowledge and protection are two different things. I want to know when a team's next foul is going to put us in the bonus, not sure that translates to prevention from that having. I want to know something like that so I can get our shooter on that foul if necessary. If that is a hard concept to understand, you are right you do need some translation.

Peace

Thank you for that translation. You need to know when the star/valued player has 3 or 4 fouls, so you can tell if the next one puts you in the bonus.
Where did you go to camp to learn that?

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Thank you for that translation. You need to know when the star/valued player has 3 or 4 fouls, so you can tell if the next one puts you in the bonus.
Where did you go to camp to learn that?

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

I have tried to have a reasonable discussion with you. I have tried to discuss this issue in a very professional manner. It appears that instead you want to try to insult me which suggest that you are not going to accept what I say on its face value. That is fine with me. I am not the one struggling to find my in officiating so I must be doing something right. I think you should attend a camp first because trying to suggest what I do not know or understand. I know who I am and what I am every time I step onto a court or field. I also realize the term “knowledge” is a hard thing to grasp for you. I guess when you work games every foul is a single event and fights happen out of the blue because you want to not have knowledge of previous events or possible future events. So when you T up a coach, you must be blindsided by why he went nuts on you. I guess you see that way of officiating honorable, but I just find it as if you are officiating with blinders on. Everything we have called is going to affect how we are perceived or how coaches and players will react to you or the opponent in the future. And do not think for a second that what coaches think do not change things in your career. You get enough of them that think you are clueless you will be on the outside looking in for a long time even if your supervisor thinks you have it together. Hey, what do I know?

It is clear that your experience is the reason you are unwilling to learn something new. I can see the experience of JR, because he simply rejects the premise and has a reason why. You try to go through smoke and mirrors and suggest I am not explaining the concept very well. Why is JR able to rejected what I am saying on the merits and you cannot? Then again, you have never attended a camp and now I see why that is. And one thing you learn when attending camp is that people will tell you things you do not agree with and it is really not that big of a deal. I realize that trying to make comparisons are hard for someone that has such a closed mind. I would rather you at the very least say you just reject the philosophy than always trying to twist the concept to something you do not understand. Just do what works for you; it does seem to be working very well.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Or......when asked about comments made earlier, they teach you to speak in gibberish so people will get tired of talking to you and drop it. It's starting to work here.

Now he is the MASTER of that.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Knowledge and protection are two different things. I want to know when a team's next foul is going to put us in the bonus, not sure that translates to prevention from that having. I want to know something like that so I can get our shooter on that foul if necessary.

Agree. You can use the knowledge of knowing that the next foul will put a team in the bonus. But.....the knowledge of whether a player has four fouls is completely different and unrelated. That type of knowledge is useless imo. And I have yet to read anything in this thread that tells me where knowing how many fouls any player has at any particular time has any possible value to an official. Saying "make it a good foul" simply leaves the wrongful impression that previous fouls may not have been "good fouls". I'd rather try to make ALL fouls "good fouls".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Agree. You can use the knowledge of knowing that the next foul will put a team in the bonus. But.....the knowledge of whether a player has four fouls is completely different and unrelated. That type of knowledge is useless imo. And I have yet to read anything in this thread that tells me where knowing how many fouls any player has at any particular time has any possible value to an official. Saying "make it a good foul" simply leaves the wrongful impression that previous fouls may not have been "good fouls". I'd rather try to make ALL fouls "good fouls".

JR,

Once again, if it does not work for you that is fine with me. It works well for me and has for years.

I like to know everything I can about the game. It prepares me for all kinds of events and I can answer questions long before they are asked and deal with potential problems long before they take place. If you call two fouls in a row on a certain player, the reaction is very likely going to be over the top with many coaches. I also like to know what kind of players are on the floor, so we can focus on what they try to do and what they will take them out of their game when you call certain things. For example, I am working in a tournament with a team I have seen several times. The team is from Chicago and they have a freshman that is considered the best in the state (not my standards, but that is what the media says). Not only did this kid foul out from what I remember, but we have to stay on top of the team setting many illegal screens and causing possible off-ball illegal contact. This team was also by far the better team and it was a focus of our crew not to let them just manhandle the less talented team. The coach of this team is one of the most class guys I have ever been around and he clearly keeps things in perspective and never complained, but he did ask a couple of questions about their aggressiveness. If that had been another coach, they might have flipped their lid or accused the crew of calling things that would take them out of their game. I would like to know that so I have an answer for when I or the crew is confronted with that claim or questions about the way the game is being called.

If that is not how you officiate the game, then be my guest and do not do it that way. I personally do not care either way. I like to know these things and knowledge does not change how I call the game. I call the game based on the players and adjust to their style when and if necessary, but I do not pass on fouls that need to be called just because we have certain players. I honestly do not know what else to tell you. But to be accused of protecting people is not only a lie, but shows that someone is not reading what is being said and trying to put their own spin on the comments.

I worked a game a week ago where the star sat much of the game because I personally called two very quick fouls on him. Believe me, the coach went nuts. His reaction did not change my game. I just was prepared to deal with his reaction. I really do not know why that is hard to understand?

Peace