If you are the R

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

......what you called before does not relate to what you will have to call in the future..........

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Actually they do very much relate. But then again just like TD21 said, you and I are coming at this from different levels of understanding.

What level of understanding would this be?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

What level of understanding would this be?

OK, what levels do you work? How long have you worked those levels? What camps do you attend every year? What level of officials do your partner's normally work?

If you answer these questions, I can explain further.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

OK, what levels do you work?

varsity and below

How long have you worked those levels?

22nd year of jr. high and below......7th year as a registered official, which allowed me to begin calling varsity

What camps do you attend every year?

never been to a camp

What level of officials do your partner's normally work?

This question makes no sense.

I am certain that I have not reached the level where I post back to back statements that directly contradict each other, then look down on others for their lack of understanding. When I reach that level, hopefully Nevadaref will let me know, and I can take a year off or something.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

varsity and below

I only work varsity for the most part. I will work one lower level game this season.

Originally Posted by just another ref

22nd year of jr. high and below......7th year as a registered official, which allowed me to begin calling varsity

This is my 12th year of basketball officiating. This season I have worked 11 straight full varsity schedule seasons. The lowest total of varsity games I have worked in a season was 25 games and that was in my 4th season after I have moved to another area.

Originally Posted by just another ref

never been to a camp

I have averaged about 4 or 5 camps every single year I have been officiating. I attend at least 2 camps for the past 6 years or so college camps. I am also a clinician in my state in basketball.

Originally Posted by just another ref

This question makes no sense.

I am certain that I have not reached the level where I post back to back statements that directly contradict each other, then look down on others for their lack of understanding. When I reach that level, hopefully Nevadaref will let me know, and I can take a year off or something.

Every concept I have told you comes from camps and other officials that I have worked with on a consistent basis. Most officials that I work with now, either have college experience or have worked multiple years at the varsity level. It sound contradictory to you because you are probably working with people that might see the game as "every game is the same, here is where we need to stand on timeouts and here is what we do if we DQ a player." Most of my pre-games are about, "Who are the top players on the team? What do they do well (post player, perimeter player, and scorer)? What kinds of coaches do we have tonight and their personalities (legends, first year coaches, quite, animated)?" So if I am talking about the foul deferential or the number of fouls a particular player has that is important to me to prepare myself and the crew as to what we will have to deal with when we call 4 and 5 on a player. Or we will know what the answer is when a coach claims the he is getting screwed. I have been known to tell a coach when the foul total is drastically in one direction, "Coach, you are running a full court defense and they are running a zone and you are not attacking the basket." You will be amazed how many times that shuts them up because they realize you are into the game or they cannot argue with what is taking place in the game. To you fouls that a player has is completely different than foul totals between teams. To me they are in the same family of concern because both are things that coaches (right or wrong) focus on and tend to want to throw in your face when things are getting out of hand against them.

Now I think you do not completely get what I am saying because as TD21 said, you have not been exposed to the same things I have. You have not even attended a camp which tells me that you have likely not heard very experienced officials talk about philosophy. And often times you cannot get that at association meetings. We have an official in one of my associations that puts out an email and is on our website called "Advanced Officiating." He talks often about things that are not simple concepts and are beyond the scope of "making every call the same because every game is the same." You seem to buy into the fact that every call is the same and should be the same no matter what and that is OK with me. I understand that philosophy and I used to buy into big time. I have learned that I do not know everything and many of the things that have made other officials successful I can use. If you do not want to accept what I am saying (and I know Woody does not) that is OK. That just makes my approach to the game different.

Also another thing, you have never seen me officiate. I have never seen you officiate. All we are talking about here is a concept. I do not know any person in one profession that approaches the craft the same way. How I approach the game works for me. I know as a clinician when I tell an official something, they can and will reject what I tell them from time to time. If you want to perfectly understand, you probably need to attend a camp or several and you might hear someone else tell the story like I had to learn some things when I was at camp.

Peace

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

If you want to be really detail-oriented, I've heard of R's actually asking the shot clock operator to try and remember the game clock time for each reset, so if you have to go back and reconstruct due to timer or equipment errors, you can do so with complete accuracy.

When I do the shot clock, I actually write down the game clock time of every reset or stoppage. It comes in handy when, for example, the ball is awarded to the defense on an OOB call, then the official changes his/her call to award the ball to the offense. Last reset was at 18:45, we're at 18:25 now, so we should have 15 seconds on the shot clock (or 10 in a women's game).

One interesting take on this is something I've seen at the college where I now help out the table crew from time to time. While most arenas have the game and shot clocks tied together, they run theirs independently. That way, as long as one clock starts/stops correctly, they can reset the other one.

[TD21]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Red = what you have called before

Blue = what you will have to call in the future

The two things do not relate to each other, yet the presence of the first thing affects the possibility of whether to call the second thing. You're right about one thing. I don't get this......at all.

They always relate to each other. Every thing we call/don't call affects what we do next. All the plays and situations that happen go together to form the game. What we do or don't do affects that game. That's why you need to know what you have called previously. Without that information you can't do your entire job correctly. But I understand if this makes no sense to you. If you haven't been taught it or never seen it in action then you wouldn't understand the meaning behind the process. So as JRut say, go to camp and see what the people are teaching. I'm not saying that you need to do this in your games. What I am saying is that you need to do them if you want to move up and do a higher level than you are currently at. And the best part is that it will even help you at the level you are at.

[just another ref]

I am, it seems, a low level official. I am at the level that I choose to work and have no ambition to reach the "next level." This is true even if advancing to the next level does not mean protecting the stars, and throwing fouls at the 10th guy off the bench because nobody cares about him, as insinuated by some here who dwell at higher levels. There are many things that I do not understand from my low level. But one thing that I do understand is that it is difficult to talk down to someone when you are sadly lacking in basic communication skills.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I am, it seems, a low level official. I am at the level that I choose to work and have no ambition to reach the "next level." This is true even if advancing to the next level does not mean protecting the stars, and throwing fouls at the 10th guy off the bench because nobody cares about him, as insinuated by some here who dwell at higher levels.

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking. I bet you believe that the best game is never to be noticed either?

Originally Posted by just another ref

There are many things that I do not understand from my low level. But one thing that I do understand is that it is difficult to talk down to someone when you are sadly lacking in basic communication skills.

You said you have never attended camp. That just boggles the mind that you can be officiating for about 5 years and never attend a camp and I am the one that has a lack of understanding? I find that rather hilarious.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

just another ref,
You would be best served by following the advice of JR. It's certainly what I strive to do.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Why not just concentrate on not giving a cheap foul to anybody? Works for me.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

And there's where I get confused. Shouldn't that philosophy apply to every player on both teams, not just the star or valued players....and also to every foul that you call(hopefully if not realistically)?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you find the line and verse where anyone said a thing about "protecting stars?" Where was that said? No one even said that, you are just making it up because you have a Pollyanna way of thinking.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.....if you have 3 or 4 fouls on a player (star player or valued player), you better make that 5th one a good one and not call something you have not been calling the rest of the game or give a cheap one.

This may require a translator between high and low levels officials, but that sounds a lot like protecting the star to me.

[Coach Bill]

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy. Almost invariably, the other coach complains about the differential. And, almost invariably, it gets close to evened up, even though it appears to me that the other team has not decreased their level of fouling and we have not increased our level of fouling. It could be my imagination, though. Just once, I'd like to hear a ref respond, "That's because you're fouling, and they're not". I have to admit that when the foul differential is not in my favor, I'll often point it out as well.

And, I would definitely call a ref on why he needs to know that one of the other team's players has four fouls. To me, it can only mean that he's gonna call fouls for that guy differently.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy. Almost invariably, the other coach complains about the differential. And, almost invariably, it gets close to evened up, even though it appears to me that the other team has not decreased their level of fouling and we have not increased our level of fouling.

Obviously, I've never worked your games.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

Every time my team has a wide foul differential in our favor (e.g., 8 for them, 1 for us), I am not happy.

Why? Do you not recognize that your team may be superior of the other team, or that the other team has been coached incorrectly? You should be not happy if the game is inconsistenly called, but statistically speaking, you will be involved in games with lopsided foul counts. Either play better defense or expect the other team to play better defense. Good teams adapt.

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

And, I would definitely call a ref on why he needs to know that one of the other team's players has four fouls. To me, it can only mean that he's gonna call fouls for that guy differently.

What do you think of an official that always knows the status of the arrow? If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow, does it mean that they are calling a held ball differently from occurance to occurance? It's about preventing mistakes.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow........

What does this mean? How do you overrule the visible arrow?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

What do you think of an official that always knows the status of the arrow? If they correct, and perhaps even overrule the visible arrow, does it mean that they are calling a held ball differently from occurance to occurance? It's about preventing mistakes.

If you're not going to call a foul differently from occurrence to occurrence either, then what mistakes can you prevent just by knowing that a player has 4 fouls?