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Mark Padgett Mon Dec 24, 2007 06:37pm
Jugs - I'm sure I don't have to go into why your comment on being notified about a player's fourth foul elicited such a reaction. In all those years, haven't you taken any flak about "not wanting to call the 5th" on a kid? I have to believe it's come up numerous times.

I'm not implying that it has an effect on your calls - not at all - but just curious about the comments and the impression it creates. Whenever a scorekeeper tells me how many fouls a kid has (unless it's five), I always tell them to not mention it.

Nevadaref Mon Dec 24, 2007 06:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JugglingReferee
You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I've worked it into my game oh - close to a decade ago. When a player is called for their 5th foul, I am ahead of the game when it comes to communication with the table and my P.

Like I said, it's also to keep the scorekeepers on their toes.

I guess my piece of advice for you then is don't try it if you don't like it.
I think that you are putting an unnecessary burden on your table crew and its entirely possible that you are going to give one of your partners information overload. What if you are working with someone who doesn't want to know about 4th fouls? They simply want to focus on the game and only deal with 5th fouls.

What about the crew that comes in the following game and the table notifies them of someone's 4th foul and they get confused? This could lead to serious communication issues with that crew and the coaches.

Overall, I don't like it.

As for your rationale of being ahead of the game, why not be two steps ahead and have the table notify you on each player's 3rd foul? Or be WAY ahead and have them notify you on 2nd fouls. ... :p

Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.

TD21 Mon Dec 24, 2007 07:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref
I think that you are putting an unnecessary burden on your table crew and its entirely possible that you are going to give one of your partners information overload. What if you are working with someone who doesn't want to know about 4th fouls? They simply want to focus on the game and only deal with 5th fouls.

What about the crew that comes in the following game and the table notifies them of someone's 4th foul and they get confused? This could lead to serious communication issues with that crew and the coaches.

Overall, I don't like it.

As for your rationale of being ahead of the game, why not be two steps ahead and have the table notify you on each player's 3rd foul? Or be WAY ahead and have them notify you on 2nd fouls. ... :p

Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.
I'm not sure about having the table notify you that a player has 4 fouls, but I do think it is a good idea to know if a player has 4 fouls. I almost always know how many fouls each player has, especially if it is one of the better players in the game. I'm sure I'm about to open up a huge debate here, but we have to know who the best players are and who has what fouls. I'll answer the question that will get asked "Why do we care if a player has 4 fouls? if he fouls and its his fifth we need to call it" before it gets asked. While I agree if it is a foul we need to call it I do think there is game management involved, especially if we just called the player for his 4th foul and it was marginal. In this case we better make sure his 5th foul is an obvious foul. Let the debate and disagreement begin!

Mark Padgett Mon Dec 24, 2007 07:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
but we have to know who the best players are
What the heck difference does this make to us?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
especially if we just called the player for his 4th foul and it was marginal.
Define "marginal". Either it's a foul or it isn't - period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
In this case we better make sure his 5th foul is an obvious foul.
So, if the behavior that earned him his 4th foul happens again but you don't think it was "obvious" (whatever that means), you're not going to call it? Defend that way of thinking please.

JugglingReferee Mon Dec 24, 2007 07:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
Jugs - I'm sure I don't have to go into why your comment on being notified about a player's fourth foul elicited such a reaction. In all those years, haven't you taken any flak about "not wanting to call the 5th" on a kid? I have to believe it's come up numerous times.
I recall the situation and I recall the venue, level, and even my P, who now does NCAA-level ball. When I told him my decision on who to rule committed the foul, he said it was fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
I'm not implying that it has an effect on your calls - not at all - but just curious about the comments and the impression it creates. Whenever a scorekeeper tells me how many fouls a kid has (unless it's five), I always tell them to not mention it.
You are correct - there is no effect on my calls.

Impression is of second concern here. I found that there was a high number of cases (in my mind) where the ball would be put back into play with the fouling player with 5 fouls but this fact was not mentioned to the officials during the reporting phase. Instead, the 5th-foul information reached the officials during a later stoppage in play (not necessarily the next stoppage, but it often was), or worse: a buzzer sounded during a live ball.

To illeviate this problem, I initated the mechanic above. If somebody doesn't like it, then don't use it. If they don't have a problem with teenage scorekeepers losing attention, then don't use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NevadaRef
Seriously, if you want to keep track of the player fouls on your own for game awareness that's fine, but please don't involve the table crew. You open yourself up to someone questioning WHY you want to know who has four fouls. There is an inherent perception of impropriety and we strive to avoid that.
Meh, it works for me and I've yet to see a table crew that can't handle the task. I am basically reminding them of the importance of passing this information to me. I guess I open myself up as you mention. When it happens I will let you know. ;)

TD21 Mon Dec 24, 2007 07:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Padgett
What the heck difference does this make to us?

If we are talking game management it makes a world of difference. If you just want to go out and blow your whistle and just "get through" the game, then it makes no difference. I promise you as you move up you are going to want to know, who your best players are, who your detractors are, and who has what fouls. It is the same as knowing, what the score is, how many fouls until the bonus, time on the clock and possession arrow. It is also just as important as remembering plays so we know how to officiate similar plays the same way. But if you don't care about the game and doing things the right way then I guess we can just call whatever on whoever because a foul is a foul is a foul.

Define "marginal". Either it's a foul or it isn't - period.

Ever watched a game and an official called a foul, and you thought to yourself "that's not a foul"? If you haven't, then what I have to say will make no sense to you. If you have, then I ask you, how can he call a foul and you think it is not a foul? as you said, "Either it's a foul or it isn't". In this case the official thought is was a foul but you didn't. So which is it? My point is, there are times when we as officials make calls that are borderline, could have called it could have passed on it. In this situation, if we call a "marginal", meaning could have called it could have passed on it, on a player and it is his 4th, we better make sure his 5th foul isn't another "marginal" foul. It will save you and the game a lot of trouble.


So, if the behavior that earned him his 4th foul happens again but you don't think it was "obvious" (whatever that means), you're not going to call it? Defend that way of thinking please.

I just talked about this above but, "obvious" means there is no argument that it was a foul. No one can question what you called. Fouls that get called should all be this way. Sometimes we make calls that are less obvious than others and other times we make wrong calls. We can help ourselves by knowing the situations in games and making sure that we respond appropriately to them. In the situation I brought up, we have called a "marginal" 4th foul on one of the better players in the game. Now we make sure that his 5th is an "obvious" foul. If it isn't then I promise you you are going to get some heat from the coach who now has to sit his player because he just got two fouls called on him, that could have been fouls, or we could have passed on. It's called game management and it can help you as an official.

Jurassic Referee Mon Dec 24, 2007 09:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
It's called game management and it can help you as an official.
Why does everybody try to justify their very own personal (and goofy imo) philosophies by trying to brand them as being "game management"? It might be the way that <b>you</b> manage <b>your</b> game, but that sureasheck doesn't make it "game management".

Hey, if you want to track every player's fouls on both teams, be my guest. Personally, I'll leave that to the scorer. I've got better things to do....like officiate a game.

Nevadaref Mon Dec 24, 2007 09:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Why does everybody try to justify their very own personal (and goofy imo) philosophies by trying to brand them as being "game management"? It might be the way that you manage your game, but that sureasheck doesn't make it "game management".
http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...es/roflmao.gif

U-da MAN!!!

just another ref Mon Dec 24, 2007 09:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
I just talked about this above but, "obvious" means there is no argument that it was a foul. No one can question what you called. Fouls that get called should all be this way. Sometimes we make calls that are less obvious than others and other times we make wrong calls. We can help ourselves by knowing the situations in games and making sure that we respond appropriately to them. In the situation I brought up, we have called a "marginal" 4th foul on one of the better players in the game. Now we make sure that his 5th is an "obvious" foul. If it isn't then I promise you you are going to get some heat from the coach who now has to sit his player because he just got two fouls called on him, that could have been fouls, or we could have passed on. It's called game management and it can help you as an official.
The above post provides more questions than answers for me. Some fouls are more obvious than others, certainly. No one can question it when you call an "obvious" foul, you say. Hard to draw that line, even if it had meaning. Some calls are less obvious and some are wrong, you say. We need an obvious foul after a marginal foul, so what do we do after a "wrong call" on a foul? The part about the "better player" is the part I find disturbing. This indicates that you rank the players and call fouls differently from player to the next. If you are worried about "heat from the coach" I can't think of anything more likely to draw it than the scorer saying "That's his 4th foul." One side will say, "They're trying to get him out," while the other will say, "They're trying to protect him."

We have an infinite number of decisions to make in every game. If you draw all these lines and put all these restrictions on so many calls, it makes your job that much more difficult, and, in my opinion, opens you up to even more criticism.

Nevadaref Mon Dec 24, 2007 09:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
The above post provides more questions than answers for me. Some fouls are more obvious than others, certainly. No one can question it when you call an "obvious" foul, you say. Hard to draw that line, even if it had meaning. Some calls are less obvious and some are wrong, you say. We need an obvious foul after a marginal foul, so what do we do after a "wrong call" on a foul? The part about the "better player" is the part I find disturbing. This indicates that you rank the players and call fouls differently from player to the next. If you are worried about "heat from the coach" I can't think of anything more likely to draw it than the scorer saying "That's his 4th foul." One side will say, "They're trying to get him out," while the other will say, "They're trying to protect him."

We have an infinite number of decisions to make in every game. If you draw all these lines and put all these restrictions on so many calls, it makes your job that much more difficult, and, in my opinion, opens you up to even more criticism.
You are wise beyond your years. :)

Adam Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
I just talked about this above but, "obvious" means there is no argument that it was a foul. No one can question what you called. Fouls that get called should all be this way. Sometimes we make calls that are less obvious than others and other times we make wrong calls. We can help ourselves by knowing the situations in games and making sure that we respond appropriately to them. In the situation I brought up, we have called a "marginal" 4th foul on one of the better players in the game. Now we make sure that his 5th is an "obvious" foul. If it isn't then I promise you you are going to get some heat from the coach who now has to sit his player because he just got two fouls called on him, that could have been fouls, or we could have passed on. It's called game management and it can help you as an official.
So let me ask this. A1 has 4 fouls, B1 doesn't. A1 drives the lane and B1 slides in and gains LGP just prior to A1 leaving the floor. B1 is still moving slightly, but hasn't given up his LGP, so by rule you have a pc foul on A1. You going to defer and call the block because the pc isn't obvious to everyone in the gym?

JRutledge Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref
We have an infinite number of decisions to make in every game. If you draw all these lines and put all these restrictions on so many calls, it makes your job that much more difficult, and, in my opinion, opens you up to even more criticism.
I will say this, I am not a fan of being told how many fouls we have called on a player by the table. Once again, whether you like it or not, the fouls you call on players that are vital to a team are big to them. And if it is big to them, they will complain whether you like it or not. Having knowledge is never a bad thing, just like I pay attention to the foul disparity for teams. It does not mean I change drastically what I was doing during the other parts of the game, but if I have a 8-1 foul total, I want to make sure I am not missing the foul on the team that has 1 foul. It is very easy to do and focus. Just like you try to focus the last few minutes of a game, you can consentrate on not giving a cheap foul to a player that is key. I do not see why this is any of a bigger deal than knowing the styles of the teams you are officiating and adjusting to what you might call because you have certain styles playing the game.

I do agree that not everyone has the ability to do that and that is why many officials get themselves in big trouble because they might not know how to make decisions on the magnitude of the situations they have to officiate in.

Peace

bob jenkins Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TD21
Fouls that get called should all be this way.
Right. So what difference does it make if it's the fifth foul, or the first foul? Concentrate on making all the fouls "good calls", and you'll have less to worry about when the fifth foul does come around.

johnnyrao Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:09am
One thing I do as the R is make sure I designate the official scorebook. I know that it is normally the home book but you can change it as the R if you feel you need to. I've never done this (change it) but I feel the need to make sue that the "non-official scorebook" book keeper understands which book counts.

just another ref Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
if I have a 8-1 foul total, I want to make sure I am not missing the foul on the team that has 1 foul. ..........consentrate on not giving a cheap foul to a player that is key.

I do agree that not everyone has the ability to do that and that is why many officials get themselves in big trouble because they might not know how to make decisions on the magnitude of the situations they have to officiate in.

Peace
So it's less important if you miss a foul on the team that has 8 fouls?
And it doesn't matter if you give a cheap foul to a player that is not key?

I suppose some of us lack your power of consentration.


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