Same wise official also said this 4th foul information is totally useless. :p

Your point, taken.

However, I will never suggest a scorer tell me when a player has 4. I will know without being told. Then I won't have to worry and can start to become a better official.

You just said it's useless information if it's not going to affect the way you call the game. So time on the clock, possession arrow, number of team fouls, who your shooter is, are all useless pieces of information? Now explame that one to me!

Its on the freakin' score board for the whole gym to see!!!!!!!

The only reason I said that was because so many people here who work only high school and below, which there is nothing wrong with, hadn't heard this before. My assumption then was that maybe its something that is only used at college and above. I personally use it in any game I work including if I were to go work a 3rd grade rec game. Its the way I officiate. But since most officials hadn't heard it, I said that I approach it from where I learned it. That wasn't a knock on anyway that doesn't work college basketball. There is a lot of informationtaught at camps by a lot of great officials out there. You would be suprised at what you could learn.

Relax Francis.

My only point is about the direct verbal communication of the players 4th foul from the scorer to an official, okay? And that was when I was worried about the coaches perception. Which, btw, I am not doing any more so I can start to become a better official.

Oh yeah, I forgot that obvious way of knowing how many fouls a player has. Worked a gym a couple weeks ago where they had all the players numbers and fouls on the board for each team. With all those numbers, it looked like something you would see at the dog or horse track.

Why? :confused: I thought that you knew everything anyway, being from the Land of College and Above.

Was going to abandon this thread as I tend to get bored reading threads that reach a thousand responses, but I will reply directly.

Prior to me asking for notice on the 4th, I had a number of cases where a 5th foul was recorded on someone and the play was already live again before the table crew could tell the on-court crew that so-and-so had fouled out. I didn't like this - it happened too often for my liking. As a coach, it would infuriate me to know that a DQ'd player was still playing. Frankly, IMHO, the officials are paid to get this stuff right.

I started to ask for 4th foul notice. For the most part, I do hear this notice. I even tell them how to tell me that so-and-so has 4 fouls. (Hold up 4 fingers.) My pre-game talk with the table goes well, and I am sure to make them laugh and learn their names.

I also make it a point to tell them that they have done their job well, and that the 4 of us (or 5) are one team. In some cases, I have even told my assignor or tournament director. I do this because way back in my HS years, I was a scorer and timer. I know that they would appreciate it if they did a good job and they heard about it afterwards.

Okay, to summarize: The awareness of the 4th foul, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. As many have pointed out, the information is usually there, one way or the other, so everybody knows it. But, the only possible good that I can see is intervening if the table is late catching the 5th, and how often does this happen? It might rain, and the roof might leak, but I ain't bringing a bucket to put under it. On the other hand, if an official makes a point of noting the 4th foul, he subconsciously may give the player some slack, or, depending on the player, may have a tendency to lean the other way. (That's 5, you arrogant little turd!) Any communication of the 4th on any player from the table or between officials, in my opinion, is bound to cause people from both sides to assume the worst. (They're protecting him! They're trying to get him out!) When you bring the quality of the individual player into the equation, this is where it becomes totally unacceptable to me. Also, when we talk about stars, this sometimes dives into a murky area. The best teams, in my experience, are often the ones that do not even have a true star. Rather, they may win with balance or a different star every night. Based on some posts in this thread, I find it conceivable to take one's "college awareness game management mentality":rolleyes: to the game, and realize in the second half that "We've been protecting the wrong player."

Okay, to summarize: Thinking for yourself = bad. Parroting what the loudest and most voluminous poster's think = good.

Thank goodness we got that sorted out. :rolleyes:

Yup, that's what different between this forum and the paid side of this site. Over here you'll hear about it when you write crap.:)

And I still say that no one has given me a good reason to NOT know when someone has 4 fouls...so I will continue being aware of that along with all the other stuff I try to be aware of.

EXACTLY!!!!!!! I have been working games the last few days, but this thread has still being entertaining. I tried to have as much knowledge about the key players and their foul situations and I did not call the game one time any different than I did when I did not know the information. And whatever I do must be noticed because I am working the Championship game in my tournament in the first year the assignor assigned it based on who he felt were his best officials rather than just geography (before they would allow the people that had the most travel leave earlier). My crew must be doing something right. Oh well, I guess this is just how the internet goes. If you do not do it my way, something is wrong with you.

Peace