Delay to the nth degree

[Mark Padgett]

Usual Saturday morning kids rec league schedule. First game (at 8:15, no less) of four was 7th grade boys. Team A got a delay warning for interfering with the ball after it went through the basket about 2 minutes into the game. A minute later, they got their second call for a boundary violation. This was right after my partner reminded them not to reach over the line. All in all, they got nine, count 'em nine, delay warnings that resulted in eight technicals. Five warnings were for interfering with the ball after a made basket, four were for boundary violations. The weird thing was that they never reached over the boundary and slapped the ball.

After one of the calls in the 3rd quarter, their assistant coach yelled at my partner that we were "being ridiculous". Mind you, not that their situation was ridiculous, but that we were. My partner teed him up, so we had four free throws that time. My partner wasn't overreacting - this league has a zero tolerance policy for coaches yelling at officials.

Oh yeah - they lost by 7. Gee, I wonder what cost them the game?

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Usual Saturday morning kids rec league schedule. First game (at 8:15, no less) of four was 7th grade boys. Team A got a delay warning for interfering with the ball after it went through the basket about 2 minutes into the game. A minute later, they got their second call for a boundary violation. This was right after my partner reminded them not to reach over the line. All in all, they got nine, count 'em nine, delay warnings that resulted in eight technicals. Five warnings were for interfering with the ball after a made basket, four were for boundary violations. The weird thing was that they never reached over the boundary and slapped the ball.

After one of the calls in the 3rd quarter, their assistant coach yelled at my partner that we were "being ridiculous". Mind you, not that their situation was ridiculous, but that we were. My partner teed him up, so we had four free throws that time. My partner wasn't overreacting - this league has a zero tolerance policy for coaches yelling at officials.

Oh yeah - they lost by 7. Gee, I wonder what cost them the game?

IMO the referees did. Why, after the first technical (2 delay violations), didn't you use some game management and pull the coaches together and give them a few seconds to instruct their kids? These were 7th grade rec kids that MAYBE practice one a week and play 12 games a year (if they are like rec kids in my area).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Ralph

IMO the referees did. Why, after the first technical (2 delay violations), didn't you use some game management and pull the coaches together and give them a few seconds to instruct their kids? These were 7th grade rec kids that MAYBE practice one a week and play 12 games a year (if they are like rec kids in my area).

Are you nuts? We warned them over and over. The coaches yelled at them before every OOB play not to reach over. They yelled at them in their huddles numerous times not to touch the ball after it went through the net. These kids practice twice a week and this league starts at 3rd grade. Most of these kids are in their 5th year of playing. Their behavior in this game is just something I can't explain. This is the 15th year I've worked this league and I've never seen anything like it before. And, if it was our "fault", why didn't the other team have even a single warning the entire game?

Ya' know, sometimes kids just don't listen and/or learn. That doesn't mean it's the fault of the officials and I resent your implication that we were negligent.

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Are you nuts? We warned them over and over. The coaches yelled at them before every OOB play not to reach over. They yelled at them in their huddles numerous times not to touch the ball after it went through the net. These kids practice twice a week and this league starts at 3rd grade. Most of these kids are in their 5th year of playing. Their behavior in this game is just something I can't explain. This is the 15th year I've worked this league and I've never seen anything like it before. And, if it was our "fault", why didn't the other team have even a single warning the entire game?

Ya' know, sometimes kids just don't listen and/or learn. That doesn't mean it's the fault of the officials and I resent your implication that we were negligent.

Well, even given what you said, I would NEVER call 9 delays in a 7th grade rec game when no advantage was gained. I think you were negligent in game management techniques, not rules enforcement. For the reach through I would back the defender up a couple feet and educate the inbounder that he can go back as far as he wanted. For slight reach throughs - I wouldn't even worry. For the touching the ball after the basket I would simply start the 5 second count after the team secured the ball unless you are telling me they swatted it far away. If they kept swatting it far away and completely went over the line on reach throughs to the point of obstructing the inbounder's view, etc., then you just have a team full of rejects. But if other refs don;t have this problem with them then I would look in the mirror.

[Smitty]

Wow...

[26 Year Gap]

JMO=Old School=Ralph=KSref=[whatever the most recent one is]

[Bad Zebra]

Originally Posted by Ralph

...For the reach through I would back the defender up a couple feet and educate the inbounder that he can go back as far as he wanted. For slight reach throughs - I wouldn't even worry. For the touching the ball after the basket I would simply start the 5 second count after the team secured the ball unless you are telling me they swatted it far away. If they kept swatting it far away and completely went over the line on reach throughs to the point of obstructing the inbounder's view, etc., then you just have a team full of rejects...

So your answer, as an official, is to instruct the OTHER team how to work around the violations instead of penalizing the offenders? Then maybe you should coach instead of officiate.

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

So your answer, as an official, is to instruct the OTHER team how to work around the violations instead of penalizing the offenders? Then maybe you should coach instead of officiate.

Yes, to some degree (as my examples cite) when we are officiating a RECREATIONAL 7th GRADE league. This was not a COMPETITIVE league. RECREATIONAL leagues are educational by nature. If all parties involved (coaches and officials) are out there for the kids education of the sport, then 9 technicals would not be called. Period.

I wonder why the OP even posted this. He indicated that the coach thought he was "being ridiculous" and was internalizing that the coach probably blamed him for losing the game. Why would he do that if he was TOTALLY sure about his actions. Sounds like he wanted validation from members of this board.

Don't post something if you can't take opposing viewpoints.

Originally Posted by Bad Zebra

So your answer, as an official, is to instruct the OTHER team how to work around the violations instead of penalizing the offenders? Then maybe you should coach instead of officiate.

Since when are coaches and officials, especially in an 11 year old rec league, adversaries? Since when are they not trying to accomplish the same goal?

Raise your hand if you have ever personally witnessed 9 INDIVIDUAL / SEPARATE Technical fouls in one game AT ANY LEVEL (fights excluded). Case closed.

I guess the OP made his point - he is the ultimate authority. And ruined the tempo of the game in the process. When all he had to do is back the kids up 2 feet. Even HS rules dictate if the OOB area is limited there is a 3-foot line that the defense can't cross marked on the court. Why couldn't he have just said "Move back a little". This would have kept the game flowing and at a time out could have instructed coaches how to instruct their players relative to the rules. he would have shown the coaches he is on the same side as them - trying to do what is best for the kids. Instead, he chose to be robocop.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Ralph

But if other refs don;t have this problem with them then I would look in the mirror.

Who the hell are you to tell me to "look in the mirror"? I've worked more kid's rec games than probably anyone else on this forum. I've served on the Board of this league for almost 15 years. Do you think I would call "petty" violations?

I look in the mirror every day. What I see is a guy who pulled this organization out of the red during my first year as Board president and who got his local newspaper to appeal to the community to get more volunteers when we didn't have enough to continue. I have never been anything but helpful and instructive to these kids. My philosophy in a league like this is to make the call, tell the kid what he/she did wrong, and keep calling it until they correct their wrong behavior. That's how they learn and that position is an official Board policy.

Gee - I guess you can sum it up by saying I truly believe in teaching kids to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions and not blame others. What a concept.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Gee - I guess you can sum it up by saying I truly believe in teaching kids to be responsible for the consequences of their own actions and not blame others. What a concept.

In what universe is this a good idea???

[TimTaylor]

Don't hold back Mark, tell us how you really feel!

Seriously, I agree with you 100%.

And Ralph, I've seen Mark work, and he does an outstanding job of game management, which isn't easy with the mix of kids & coaches you get at this level. This is the age where they need to learn these things if they want a chance at playing at the high school level, and experience is often the best teacher.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Ralph

Well, even given what you said, I would NEVER call 9 delays in a 7th grade rec game when no advantage was gained.

But if other refs don;t have this problem with them then I would look in the mirror.

The delays were called because they were giving that team an advantage. That advantage was delaying the game.

You really should look in the mirror. You're blaming an official for poor coaching.

Btw, are you an official?

[Mark Padgett]

Thanks for all the support, guys. If I have a sore spot, it's being attacked on my attitude toward my local kids rec league, since I have been involved with it for so long.

Actually, I have another sore spot, but no matter how much I beg her, Juulie won't rub it for me.

[Nevadaref]

Well, Ralph, you have once again opened your mouth without having a clue to whom you are speaking. Your lack of respect for the knowledge and abilities of others is astonishing.

==============================
Directed at Padgett, who is the supervisor of officials for this rec league and has likely officiated more games at this level than anyone else on the forum (perhaps even the west coast). Now who has a better idea of when multiple technical fouls are appropriate in this rec league?

Originally Posted by Ralph

IMO the referees did. Why, after the first technical (2 delay violations), didn't you use some game management and pull the coaches together and give them a few seconds to instruct their kids? These were 7th grade rec kids that MAYBE practice one a week and play 12 games a year (if they are like rec kids in my area).

Originally Posted by Ralph

Well, even given what you said, I would NEVER call 9 delays in a 7th grade rec game when no advantage was gained. I think you were negligent in game management techniques, not rules enforcement. For the reach through I would back the defender up a couple feet and educate the inbounder that he can go back as far as he wanted. For slight reach throughs - I wouldn't even worry. For the touching the ball after the basket I would simply start the 5 second count after the team secured the ball unless you are telling me they swatted it far away. If they kept swatting it far away and completely went over the line on reach throughs to the point of obstructing the inbounder's view, etc., then you just have a team full of rejects. But if other refs don;t have this problem with them then I would look in the mirror.

Directed at Brandan89, who really does work at the HS level and has for three years now.

Originally Posted by Ralph

With all due respect, officiating games at 12, 13, 14 years old is not applicable to subvarsity experience with an older, more experienced official. Start counting when you have done your first HS game.

Originally Posted by Ralph

You have been calling HS games since you were 14? So a 14 year old ninth grader is officiating 14 year old 9th graders in interscholastic games? Unlikely.

Originally Posted by Ralph

Again, a 17 year old calling JV (17 year olds) basketball. There must be a huge shortage of officials there.

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Now I strongly suggest that you start having some consideration for the source before you start blasting away. It just may turn out that the original source knows more about the situation than you do.


JR, of course he claims to be a very experienced and successful official.

Originally Posted by Ralph

When you have 15 years, 4 substate, and 2 state finals under your belt you can lecture me about "what you have learned". Until that time I suggest you keep your secrets for other 17 year olds.