How long before your first T to a coach?

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

Not a lot of coaches in mens rec leagues huh?

As has been stated in other threads on this topic...don't worry about giving a T, most good officials have spent far more time thinking about T's that they should have given than ones that they have given out.

You need to find your line that can't be crossed and always take care of business when it is crossed...it really is that simple...that and ignore whatever the oracle says.

Boy, an attempt at a personal insult and very much aligned with my philosophy? Wow... Your advice is outstanding.

[Red_Killian]

One of my focus items this year is to give the coaches the T's they earn. Whether it's ranting and raving or repeatedly being out of their box, it's just another call. I'll continue to deal with coaches with respect and make every effort to avoid the T via talking or warnings but I have defined a line and over the line, even an inch, will be a T. I'm going to treat it like OB. So far this year after about 10 games, one T in a JUCO game.

[archer]

2:15 seconds in to the first quarter of my very first varsity game. Counting T's is like a tin horn gunfighter cutting notches in his gun. I dont keep up with them, but I hand them out like candy on Halloween! 90% of HS coaches are idiots and do not know the rules. They are supposed to attend the state clinics to know the rule changes... But instead of going to learn the game, they send the waterboy or the janitor. So in turn, when one of these morons that tax payers are subsidising acts up. I wack him! And if one isnt good enough. I wack him again and send him to the time out corner!!!!! If they dont take the time to become educated to benefit the kids. Im not taking the time to listen to him rant about a moving screen!!!!!!!! Give me a break coach!!! Read the damn rule book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by archer

2:15 seconds in to the first quarter of my very first varsity game. Counting T's is like a tin horn gunfighter cutting notches in his gun. I dont keep up with them, but I hand them out like candy on Halloween! 90% of HS coaches are idiots and do not know the rules. They are supposed to attend the state clinics to know the rule changes... But instead of going to learn the game, they send the waterboy or the janitor. So in turn, when one of these morons that tax payers are subsidising acts up. I wack him! And if one isnt good enough. I wack him again and send him to the time out corner!!!!! If they dont take the time to become educated to benefit the kids. Im not taking the time to listen to him rant about a moving screen!!!!!!!! Give me a break coach!!! Read the damn rule book!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wow.. thats a strong stance.

[archer]

Im sick and tired of going to the state meetings only to see the trainer, janitor or some other representative that has no interest in knowing the rules. I wish I had a dollar for every coach that has yelled " watch the moving screen!" Bascially what it boils down to is that we the taxpayers are not getting our monies worth from coaches and school employees. If we turned out a product in the private sector like the schools that turn out their products. We would be out of business. So Yea, its a strong stance because Im tired of the idiot coaches that try and manipulate officals with their tripe they spout out during a game!!!!

[Bearfanmike20]

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

I just give him a look, and then let it go. He said nothing else and I think I made my point in just one look.

[biz]

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

Same situation in a 7th grade girls game after a made basket I happened to glance at the clock because I knew we were under a minute in the half. The clock said 35.(something). I finish my count and blow the whistle for the 5 sec. violation and the clock stops at 29.8. I'm congratulating myself and the coach is saying something about a fast count.

That being said....

First of all I dont talk to ***. coaches! As far as Im concerned they are like the lil yip yip dogs that are nippin at your hills when you are taking a walk with the misses.

Archer, you are no worse than an uneducated coach who believes the officials cost his/her team a game. As a High School JV coach and Varsity Assistant coach I take great offense to you lumping every coach in the world together. I don't go to those state meetings because I don't need the rule book explained to me, not because I don't care.

I have refereed for over 10 years and I give coaches the benefit of the doubt until they cross the line, you clearly come in to every game with a pre-conceived notion of what to expect from the coaches and that is every bit as wrong as the "howler-monkey" coaches that don't know the rules.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

So.. I made a 5 sec call on sat. Coach sais, "Thats the shortest 5 sec call I have ever seen."

Davism for a coach yelling to get a 5 (or 3) second call:

"Coach, that wasn't 5 (or 3) seconds even in dog years."

[SMEngmann]

I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.

[blindzebra]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

I think the thing here is that there is no one right way, whether or not to T or how many Ts called has a lot to do with personal philosophy about how to best manage and control a game. There are times when there are Ts that are warranted, but that also could have been prevented at an earlier point in the game. I think experience, introspection and reviewing games/tapes helps determine those times. Addressing actions earlier in a game can establish a boundary for later in the game. If actions go unaddressed early, there may come a time later where a coach deserves a T and crosses the line, but that situation might not have arisen if the official had been more preventative early on.

There are also some officials who use the T a lot more liberally in order to control the game. In these cases, the Ts aren't necessarily notches on the belt, but more strictly meted out and done so consistently over a period of time. Coaches know when they see an official like this what they're in for, so they have to adjust, and that's one way to control and be in charge of a game. Right or wrong, that's the way that works for some.

Either way, there's no right way. The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player? Figuring these things out I think are necessary for an effective response and evaluation of response to improve next time. Just assuming that the coach is an idiot (which can be the case a lot of times) without evaluating fully the situation, in my opinion, is the wrong approach and restricts improvement and development.

99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?"

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by blindzebra

99% of the time coaches talk for one reason, to get the calls in their favor. Ever notice how they rarely say, "Hey we were holding their cutter that last trip down, can you watch for us doing that?"

I think you need a healthy level of cynicism when it comes to coaches...not the Dirty Harry level of Archer, but some. Too much self-reflection on comments will probably lead to calls swaying in an unfair way.

Did you ever think that instead of trying to get calls that some coaches, especially the ones at higher levels, are trying to alert your attention to a perceived disadvantage? Coaches spend time watching films and studying the game. They know when moving screens cause a huge advantage. They know when offensive players use their arms or uppoer body to illegally establish position. And these things are grey areas that occur in most games. Bad coahces are dumb--comments are just noise. But a lot of coaches just want to communicate, and may have valid points. Experience teaches how to distinguish. Cynical new officials will never learn.

[kblehman]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction?

In my brief career it seems that a coach is more likely to get on me when he's frustrated over the way his team is playing, or frustrated because his team just doesn't have the talent to compete with their opponent. So instead of admitting as much he begins to vent at the ref and place blame elsewhere.

I guess what I get kind of tired of are the coaches who make verbal comments about every call or non-call during the game when things aren't going their way. I heard a few last night in my JV game: "man it's barn ball out there," "no foul?" "over the back!," and then when her (inept) team finally drew an interior foul she calls out "thank you!" as if the game were lopsided because of how we were calling it instead of because her team was slower and less athletic than the other team. How far do you let that constant chirping go?

[Chess Ref]

Originally Posted by SMEngmann

The one thing that we definitely do need to consider are the causes of coaches popping off, because there's always a reason. Is it because of my judgment? Is it because of the time and score of the game, and it's an emotional reaction? Is he protecting a player?

Wow. I have no chance of figuring out why some high school coach is doing what they do. I've known my brother for 42 years and couldn't tell you why he does what he does half the time. I just don't think I'm gonna have much luck figuring out some stranger in less than an hour and half. Quite franlky I don't care to either. The coaches are there to coach and be role models, not act like my 2 year old nephew.

Coaches pop off for a variety of reasons.

A. can't coach - it's the refs fault we lost
B. Not enough talent and can't coach--it's the refs fault we lost
C. Have talent and can't coach-it's the refs fault we lost.

It's easier to blame then to accept responsibility. It's pretty easy to expect perfection from others then to accept that calls get kicked. I am a believer that the incessant whiners just don't know what they're doing so they whine. Heck any self respecting alley cat can do that for an hour and a half.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Chess Ref

Coaches pop off for a variety of reasons.

A. can't coach - it's the refs fault we lost
B. Not enough talent and can't coach--it's the refs fault we lost
C. Have talent and can't coach-it's the refs fault we lost.

D. Have no clue about rules, and blame that on the refs.
E. Gonna lose position if team doesn't do well, and that's the refs' fault, too.
F. Can't understand why every ref seems to be hostile to coach -- but it must be their problem, right?
G. Have no sense of neutrality and no respect for authority, and can't understand why refs don't see it their way.
H. Life just isn't fair. Yelling makes it fair, right?

[archer]

I love hearing coaches tell me to watch the moving screens, 3 seconds and over the back...... That pretty much reinforces my thoughts of coaches. When I encounter a howler monkey coach like that. I lock and load because Ill be aiming for the tree line to wack that monkey off his limb..............