Throw-In ends, huh

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

this would be a pet peave of mine...

so what you are saying is that because I am a new official I am not entitiled to an opinion...

am I wrong??...

Yes.. I absolutely would and do say this stuff to official who have been doing this for 40+ years.. and you know what??.. they dont have a problem with it.

Is there some kind of right of attrition to make a point??

I think that many of us.. new and old still have the same problem. Overcomplication. Its just an opinion.

Sorry to have disturbed some kind of unwritten rule that a new official cant have a take on something.

Isa gonna try and do betta from now on massa...

Come on...

Mike, Tom is one of our resident curmudgeons. He's a very good ref, good on rules but tends to get a little grouchy. He'll rattle his saber a little, but he's also good at encouraging new refs, and refs who need to develop. You can learn a lot from him,even his crusty outbursts.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Mike, Tom is one of our resident curmudgeons. He's a very good ref, good on rules but tends to get a little grouchy. He'll rattle his saber a little, but he's also good at encouraging new refs, and refs who need to develop. You can learn a lot from him,even his crusty outbursts.

I understand his point, I just dont completely agree.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Mike, Tom is one of our resident curmudgeons. He's a very good ref, good on rules but tends to get a little grouchy. He'll rattle his saber a little, but he's also good at encouraging new refs, and refs who need to develop. You can learn a lot from him,even his crusty outbursts.

a bad-tempered, difficult, cantankerous person

I don't know about all that.

If I wanted to wax poetic I would say that officiating is an art. Do you tell a seasoned artist how to prepare his brushes? I wouldn't, but that is just me. Can I learn something new from an official? I sure can, but it will more than likely NOT be from statements like you posted. More than likely, we can observe and copy what we see - note, the observe is in silence.

If you know the point I'm tryin to make I think it would be good to accept the point without being sensitive about the way it was delivered.
You said something about your theory applying to life. That is a problem I see with officials all the time. It is often hard to get an adult to realize all the success they've had in other areas of their life don't prepare them for what can occur on a basketball court. There is no credit for success in other areas - a rookie official can crash and burn when they talk more than they listen. There are parts of this game that you are light years away from understanding. Some of us older officials used to go to the bar and sit quietly to learn how to officiate. Now we have the Internet and (some) people think they can use this as a fast forward. These are kindler, gentler days, but you come on!

Would you like to put our theories to the test?

[tomegun]

BearFan, I just read the beginning of your thread concerning a wet whistle - that is all I could stomach.

Uh...yeah, what was your point again?

[Bearfanmike20]

There are parts of this game that you are light years away from understanding. Some of us older officials used to go to the bar and sit quietly to learn how to officiate.

I completely agree with this statment.

but I dont feel that I am unqualified to comment on the topic of this thread.

If the topic was.

"I'm doing my first state championship any tips??"

I'm not giving advice. I wouldn't have the first clue on what that was like.

a simple rules interp.. that is somthing I can comment on.

I dont think I have ever overstepped my bounds in that reguard?? have I??

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by tomegun

BearFan, I just read the beginning of your thread concerning a wet whistle - that is all I could stomach.

Uh...yeah, what was your point again?

So you dont get condensation buildup on your whistle??..

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

So you dont get condensation buildup on your whistle??..

Like you described in that other thread? NO!!! I have never needed to let water/spittle run out of my whistle.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Like you described in that other thread? NO!!! I have never needed to let water/spittle run out of my whistle.

You must live in a dry climate like mine.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

I'm not giving advice. I wouldn't have the first clue on what that was like.

But you do have a clue about...

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Sometimes as refs we get hung up on technicalities and forget common sense.

Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

And you've done how many games to come to this conclusion?
In this case, I am (figuratively) shooting the messanger; the message is OK, but it is coming from someone without the basketball officiating experience to really back it up. Reading this forum does not amount to enough credibility for this. You can read every word of every post and still not be able to put it into action on the floor.

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

During the game do you ever find yourself trying to get the spit out of your whistle??... Not somthing I would have thought about before I started doing this, but they should have a release valve or somthing...

So a new intern walks up to a group of doctors who've performed various levels of surgery and says, "Sometimes we, as doctors, should..." By the time he is finished with the sentence, the surgeons have all walked away shaking their heads.

On his first day in the shop, before working on any cars besides in the back yard (rec leagues), the freshly certified mechanic says to the group of experienced mechanics, "Sometimes we, as mechanics, should..." After catching a wrench upside the head, the new mechanic begins his first oil change job.

Start slowly grasshopper - listen and learn in near silence. There is a ton of information to take in concerning a basketball game and a ton of plays to make before you get comfortable. Statements like this at this point in your career are more than likely something repeated from another official - how do you know how hot the fire is before you've ever been in it.

When I figure this whole thing out I will let you know...and I will retire immediately after because I will have gone where no other official has gone. That ain't gonna happen!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Sometimes as refs we get hung up on technicalities and forget common sense.

It makes sense that if a throws the ball away they commited a violation and loose the ball and the arrow.

A couple of people referenced the rules above.

Had you stopped right there, I don't think anyone (not even tomegun) would have taken issue with your post.


[/Quote]Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

there is an old saying. "keep it simple stupid"

Not calling you stupid LOL, but the point is try not to over think everything.[/QUOTE]

But you added the part about thinking too hard and keeping it simple - which might be good advice (I happen to think it is and would agree with you and buy you another beer at the bar), but it can make some people angry who do take reffing very seriously. It kind of came across as downplaying the hard work and effort some people pour into their officiating careers.

Having said that, of course you can post your opinions...just don't be surprised/indignant/offended when someone else posts that they disagree with your opinion. That's kind of the way opinions work.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

So a new intern walks up to a group of doctors who've performed various levels of surgery and says, "Sometimes we, as doctors, should..." By the time he is finished with the sentence, the surgeons have all walked away shaking their heads.

Or, as very experienced, wise and humane people they remember their first few years, listen to the content and overlook the rather presumptuous tone, and smile condescendingly, knowing that he's right in what he says, even if it implies an authority not necessarily there. Knowing he'll develop a more humble tone as time goes along.

I mean what mike said isn't totally wrong, is it? We do overthink things sometimes, don't we?

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Or, as very experienced, wise and humane people they remember their first few years, listen to the content and overlook the rather presumptuous tone, and smile condescendingly, knowing that he's right in what he says, even if it implies an authority not necessarily there. Knowing he'll develop a more humble tone as time goes along.

I mean what mike said isn't totally wrong, is it? We do overthink things sometimes, don't we?

No, it isn't totally wrong and yes we do overthink things sometimes. What you posted above makes sense too, that is why I posted this:

Originally Posted by Tomegun (the all-knowing)

In this case, I am (figuratively) shooting the messanger; the message is OK, but it is coming from someone without the basketball officiating experience to really back it up.

You could look at it like instead of looking at him like you described I'm saving him the ridicule by telling him to zip it early on.

P.S. I am thinking about my early years...I listened and shut up!

[tonyvan]

OK, more on the main topic of this thread, "Throw-In ends"...

Alternating Possession situation, A1 is administered the ball for throw in, player on A steps out of bounds, runs up the sideline, then steps back onto the court and receives the throw in...In regards to a team member going out of bounds during the throw in the rule book states "violation or technical"? When is it one over the other? Next, if violation, then A violated during the throw in so they lose Alternating Possession, correct? If technical, then they still lose Alternating Possession?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by tonyvan

OK, more on the main topic of this thread, "Throw-In ends"...

Alternating Possession situation, A1 is administered the ball for throw in, player on A steps out of bounds, runs up the sideline, then steps back onto the court and receives the throw in...In regards to a team member going out of bounds during the throw in the rule book states "violation or technical"? When is it one over the other? Next, if violation, then A violated during the throw in so they lose Alternating Possession, correct? If technical, then they still lose Alternating Possession?

Again, here are the general rules principles to follow:
-it is a violation to leave the court for an unauthorized reason. You have to learn what the "unauthorized reasons" are.
- it is a technical foul to delay returning in-bounds after being illegally out-of-bounds. You have to learn when a player is legally and illegally out-of-bounds.

Different penalties for 2 completely different situations.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

- it is a technical foul to delay returning in-bounds after being illegally out-of-bounds.

Actually, it is a technical to "purposely and/or deceitfully delay returning after legally being out of bounds." 10-3-3