Throw-In ends, huh

[RushmoreRef]

Sorry if this a thread that has been brought before but.....

I posted this under the "new rule" thread already but didn't know if anyone was looking there or not.

So if the kick violation doesn't complete a legal throw-in and therefore the arrow doesn't change can someone tell me what to do with the following....

A1 has alternating possession throw in and throws the ball toward A2. Ball is thrown too high and without a legal touch by a player bounces off the court inbounds and proceeds to go out of bounds.

I know that team B now gets the ball from team A's throw in spot because the ball went OOB but my question is...

Does the AP arrow change or does team A still have it since the thrown in never ended with a legal touch?

Rules citation please, this has been bugging me since last night and I've been riding the fence ever since. I can't find it anywhere....it was a coach that asked the questions and I hate when I can't quote the rule and where to find it for him.

Thank you.

[illinoisbluezeb]

Team A violated so they loose the arrow.
Case book 9.2.8

[RushmoreRef]

That's for a lodged ball, yes...

This ball only touched the floor and went oob...or didn't touch the floor.

My point is according to rule 4.42.5:

The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is legally touched by, another player who is either inbounds or out of bounds.

In situation posted the throw in never ends by a touch.

So, does rule 9.2.2 mean it is a violation to throw a ball in that doesn't touch anyone and proceeds to go oob?

I feel really dumb on this one....don't beat me up too bad.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

That's for a lodged ball, yes...

This ball only touched the floor and went oob...or didn't touch the floor.

My point is according to rule 4.42.5:

The throw-in ends when the passed ball touches, or is legally touched by, another player who is either inbounds or out of bounds.

In situation posted the throw in never ends by a touch.

So, does rule 9.2.2 mean it is a violation to throw a ball in that doesn't touch anyone and proceeds to go oob?

I feel really dumb on this one....don't beat me up too bad.

Sometimes as refs we get hung up on technicalities and forget common sense.

It makes sense that if a throws the ball away they commited a violation and loose the ball and the arrow.

A couple of people referenced the rules above.

Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

there is an old saying. "keep it simple stupid"

Not calling you stupid LOL, but the point is try not to over think everything.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Sometimes as refs we get hung up on technicalities and forget common sense.

It makes sense that if a throws the ball away they commited a violation and loose the ball and the arrow.

A couple of people referenced the rules above.

Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

there is an old saying. "keep it simple stupid"

Not calling you stupid LOL, but the point is try not to over think everything.

Does someone have the same screen name as you? Unless you've done years and years or rec ball - it isn't the same but at least its something - didn't you make a post today about having your first freshmen games tonight?
Would you walk into a room with veteran officials, officials with state championship and college experience, and begin to talk about what we do as refs? With all the experienced posters on this board that is essentially what you just did. I looked at your post crazy like they would probably look at you if you went into a room saying the same thing. There is also an old saying about being seen and not heard...

I don't want to jump all over you, but think about it for a minute. At this point in your career, would you listen to someone with less experience to you tell you what officials do? If what you say is something you've heard a veteran say, preface it as such.

[Bearfanmike20]

Originally Posted by tomegun

Does someone have the same screen name as you? Unless you've done years and years or rec ball - it isn't the same but at least its something - didn't you make a post today about having your first freshmen games tonight?
Would you walk into a room with veteran officials, officials with state championship and college experience, and begin to talk about what we do as refs? With all the experienced posters on this board that is essentially what you just did. I looked at your post crazy like they would probably look at you if you went into a room saying the same thing. There is also an old saying about being seen and not heard...

I don't want to jump all over you, but think about it for a minute. At this point in your career, would you listen to someone with less experience to you tell you what officials do? If what you say is something you've heard a veteran say, preface it as such.

this would be a pet peave of mine...

so what you are saying is that because I am a new official I am not entitiled to an opinion...

am I wrong??...

Yes.. I absolutely would and do say this stuff to official who have been doing this for 40+ years.. and you know what??.. they dont have a problem with it.

Is there some kind of right of attrition to make a point??

I think that many of us.. new and old still have the same problem. Overcomplication. Its just an opinion.

Sorry to have disturbed some kind of unwritten rule that a new official cant have a take on something.

Isa gonna try and do betta from now on massa...

Come on...


ps.. sorry for the above post. I just get really upset when people tell me I cant have an opinion on somthing. My 5 year old son has not lived as long as me but daily this child teaches at least one thing that I dont know. Even about stuff that I think I do know. The inexperienced can be just as valuble a resource as the experienced because they are devoid of bad habbits that may have been accumulated over the years. The advice I gave above can be applied to anything you do in life. Please dont tell me that my opinion doesn't matter.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Bearfanmike20

Sometimes as refs we get hung up on technicalities and forget common sense.

It makes sense that if a throws the ball away they commited a violation and loose the ball and the arrow.

A couple of people referenced the rules above.

Had you stopped right there, I don't think anyone (not even tomegun) would have taken issue with your post.


[/Quote]Sometimes we (meself included) think too hard about this stuff.

there is an old saying. "keep it simple stupid"

Not calling you stupid LOL, but the point is try not to over think everything.[/QUOTE]

But you added the part about thinking too hard and keeping it simple - which might be good advice (I happen to think it is and would agree with you and buy you another beer at the bar), but it can make some people angry who do take reffing very seriously. It kind of came across as downplaying the hard work and effort some people pour into their officiating careers.

Having said that, of course you can post your opinions...just don't be surprised/indignant/offended when someone else posts that they disagree with your opinion. That's kind of the way opinions work.

[NM_Ref]

I looked through the book...didn't find anything specific, but I'm gonna give it a go...

Team A is ready for throwin. A1 throws ball in and it is kicked by B1. There is a violation and A gets the ball back with the arrow.

vs.

Team A is ready for throwin, throws it across the court. Ball touches no one. Ball belongs to team B. Out of bounds violation and ball goes to B. B also gets possession arrow.

The kicked ball situation differs from the ball going out of bounds because you don't want to penalize the team with the throwin because of the defensive violation.

B would get the ball and the arrow because if you didn't give them the arrow, they would be penalized for A's violation.

Check rule 6.4.5
The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by NM_Ref

I looked through the book...didn't find anything specific, but I'm gonna give it a go...

Team A is ready for throwin. A1 throws ball in and it is kicked by B1. There is a violation and A gets the ball back with the arrow.

vs.

Team A is ready for throwin, throws it across the court. Ball touches no one. Ball belongs to team B. Out of bounds violation and ball goes to B. B also gets possession arrow.

The kicked ball situation differs from the ball going out of bounds because you don't want to penalize the team with the throwin because of the defensive violation.

B would get the ball and the arrow because if you didn't give them the arrow, they would be penalized for A's violation.

Check rule 6.4.5
The opportunity to make an alternating-possession throw-in is lost if the throw-in team violates.

Thanks both of you guys...now it's clearer....A AP throw in that doesn't touch anyone is a violation on the team with the throw in (9.9.2) therefore they lose the ball for the violation and the arrow (6.4.5).

Now I can go to bed, thanks fellas

[NM_Ref]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

Thanks both of you guys...now it's clearer....A AP throw in that doesn't touch anyone is a violation on the team with the throw in (9.9.2) therefore they lose the ball for the violation and the arrow (6.4.5).

Now I can go to bed, thanks fellas

good night...but now i can't go to sleep til i figure out what 9.9.2 has to do with it

[RushmoreRef]

Originally Posted by NM_Ref

good night...but now i can't go to sleep til i figure out what 9.9.2 has to do with it

oops, sleep deprivation (9.2.2)

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by RushmoreRef

Thanks both of you guys...now it's clearer....A AP throw in that doesn't touch anyone is a violation on the team with the throw in (9.9.2) therefore they lose the ball for the violation and the arrow (6.4.5).

Now I can go to bed, thanks fellas

Since A1 caused the ball to go OOB, B gets a throw in at A1's original throw in spot, correct? Not where the ball goes OOB?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Since A1 caused the ball to go OOB, B gets a throw in at A1's original throw in spot, correct? Not where the ball goes OOB?

Right ruling, wrong reason. This was a throw-in violation, not an OOB violation. Therefore, the ball goes to the opponent at the original throw-in spot. (Rule 9, Penalty Section 2)

Also, the rule that the OP should cite for the questioning coach is the one which states when an AP throw-in ends.

6-4-4 "...The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

[CoachP]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Right ruling, wrong reason. This was a throw-in violation, not an OOB violation. Therefore, the ball goes to the opponent at the original throw-in spot. (Rule 9, Penalty Section 2)

Also, the rule that the OP should cite for the questioning coach is the one which states when an AP throw-in ends.

6-4-4 "...The direction of the possession arrow is reversed immediately after an alternating-possession throw-in ends. An alternating-possession throw-in ends when the throw-in ends or when the throw-in team violates."

Perfect, thanks!

[budjones05]

Originally Posted by CoachP

Since A1 caused the ball to go OOB, B gets a throw in at A1's original throw in spot, correct? Not where the ball goes OOB?

We are using 6-4-5 The opportunity to make an alternating possession throw in is lost if the throw in team violates. If either team fouls during an alternating possession throw in, it does not cause the throw in team to lose the possession arrow.

This means that since team A didn't foul and there is a violation, there is it will be team B's ball and team B will have the poss. arrow the next time around. The throw in spot will be a spot throw in which will be where team A threw the ball in